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Author
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Topic: God, The Supernatural And the Three Laws
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 147 (166674)
12-09-2004 7:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 7:21 PM
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Re: THINK!
Of course everyone knows the Three Laws, only a dolt would be unaware of them.
#1 A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. #2 A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. #3 A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. I don't see much of a relationship between your OP and the Three Laws. And there is NOTHING in any of your examples that has ANYTHING to do with Thermodynamics.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 7:21 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 8:14 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 147 (166689)
12-09-2004 7:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 7:35 PM
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Re: Think energy.
Buz writes: Correct me if mistaken, but aren't energy and heat related? I've read some definitions of the 2nd law where energy is applicable. The unhealty person lacked energy. Power/energy proceeded forth from Jesus, the powerful one and entered into the weak one who lacked energy, effecting a measure of equalibrium of energy. Thus we see the 2nd law satisfied, do we not? Okay Buz, let's give this some serious consideration and move through this step by step. I belive that for once you may have proved something. First are you saying that the 2 nd. Law of Thermodynamics is applied in your example? So you are proposing a Closed System,right?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 7:35 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 8:19 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 147 (166703)
12-09-2004 8:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 8:19 PM
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Re: Think energy.
Okay, so energy moved from object A to Object B in a Closed System. Do you agree with this so far?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 8:19 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 9:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 17 of 147 (166706)
12-09-2004 8:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 8:14 PM
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Re: Hard To Believe!
Question. 1. Does my hypothesis violate any of the three laws? 2. Does Rich Gore's hypothesis violate any of the three laws? - we're working through you supposition in other posts.
- the other is simply an article meant for a general NON-scientific audience and so is totally extraneous.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 8:14 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 22 of 147 (166739)
12-09-2004 9:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 9:23 PM
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Re: Think energy.
quote:
jar asked:
Okay, so energy moved from object A to Object B in a Closed System.
Do you agree with this so far?
to which Buz replied:
Agree So from this, object A is diminished and object B enhanced. Eventually object A and object B will be at the exact same energy level and neither will be able to transfer energy. Agreed?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 9:23 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 10:06 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 26 of 147 (166759)
12-09-2004 10:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 10:06 PM
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Re: Think energy.
No trap Buz. It's what YOU said.
Problem for your would be trap. My "A", having intelligence, has the ability to release and to withold energy at will. Even if what you say is true, if you wish to apply the Laws of Thermodynamics, then you diminish GOD and exhalt man. Your A may well be able to decide when to release or withhold energy but that does not effect the logic I laid out "AND YOU AGREED WITH". There is no way around it. If you want to bring in something like the Laws of Thermodynamics then let's apply them. YOU said it is a closed system. YOU said the 2 nd. Law applied. If that is true then by YOUR example, GOD is dimisnished and man exhalted. Stop trying to prove GOD by science. It can only hurt your case.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 10:06 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 10:36 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 30 of 147 (166781)
12-09-2004 10:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 10:36 PM
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Re: Think energy.
God, how does that pertain to the topic or refute my op? My OP is not about proving God. My op is whether the so called supernatural processes stated in my op violate any of the three scientific laws. You have yet to forthrightly answer that question. I believe I have you in checkmate That's fine. Just so you understand that your OP shows that GOD is not all powerful and that GOD is constantly becoming less powerful, less good, less capable. You said:
The Biblically supernatural is harmoniously in concordance with the three thermodynamic laws, which, in my own buzwords are as follows: If you believe that the image of a GOD that is constanly less then the moment before, a GOD that is constantly diminishing until he becomes some common object with exactly the same power and energy as all other objects, that GOD will someday be no more than background noise, then I'd say your OP is certainly harmoniously in concordance with the three thermodynamic laws.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 10:36 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 11:49 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 33 of 147 (166801)
12-10-2004 12:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Buzsaw
12-09-2004 11:49 PM
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Re: Think energy.
Well, once you bring in infinite energy, the system really is not closed. So out go the three laws.
Our belief in intelligent design, thus appears to be no more illogical nor less scientific than National Geographic's Rich Gore's hypothesis, which has the universe emerging from a mear submicroscopic particle of space. It is, indeed, imo, I say imo, more logical and more scientific. Nonsense. There is evidence to support the Big Bang, but absolutely NO evidence for ID or the Biblical Creation Myth.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 12-09-2004 11:49 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 12:19 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 147 (166812)
12-10-2004 12:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
12-10-2004 12:19 AM
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Re: Think energy.
Because you say that there is an infinite source of power (not merely very large) then it's an open system. You keep trying yet again to change the discussion when you're shown to be wrong, and I'm not taking your bait. This is not about the Big Bang, that's pretty well supported, but rather your assertion that there is some scientific support for the super natural. And so far, I don't see it. Let's try for once to stick to one subject. If you propose a infinite energy source then how can the system be closed and how would any of the Laws of Thermodynamics apply?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 12:19 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by CK, posted 12-10-2004 12:42 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 12:53 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 43 of 147 (166820)
12-10-2004 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by CK
12-10-2004 12:42 AM
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Re: Think energy.
Probably not. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by CK, posted 12-10-2004 12:42 AM | | CK has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 48 of 147 (166827)
12-10-2004 1:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
12-10-2004 12:53 AM
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Re: Think energy.
I think we all agree that the universe is a closed system Okay.
If the supreme being within the universe has forever posessed infinite power, nothing is ever being added to the universe, is it? If there is some infinite source of power within the system then it is not closed.
I don't know why you, being a professed believer in the imaculate virgin conception and the resurrection from the dead of Jesus, would argue against a powerful supreme existing within the universe. Totally off topic but I agree that you don't understand. There is much you don't understand. But keep trying, so far you haven't been able to offer any logical or reasonable input and certainly no evidence, but one day you may come up with something.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 12:53 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 10:01 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 60 of 147 (166962)
12-10-2004 1:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
12-10-2004 10:01 AM
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Re: Think energy.
Buz Once you start bringing in the miraculous, myths such as an infinite power source within a closed thermodynamic system, any rules or logic go out the window. Why don't you simply say "I believe there is a GOD and that the Universe exists within GOD. It's a belief Buz. If you wish to tie GOD to science, then GOD must be subject to all of the restraints, rules, laws, effects, tests, evidence, observation and verification as any other Natural subject. If you want to apply the Laws of Thermodynamics to GOD then GOD is simply another energy source, not infinite, and diminishing constantly until GOD is no more than the background clutter. The other choice is to make GOD super-natural. If that is your choice then Natural Laws don't apply.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 10:01 AM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 8:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 67 of 147 (167070)
12-10-2004 9:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
12-10-2004 8:29 PM
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Re: Think energy.
Let's get the trivialities out of the way first.
jar writes: It's a belief. Buz responds quote:
So is Rich Gore's theory.
Nonsense buz. There is evidence to support Rich Gore and NO evidence to support your hypothesis. It is also just another attempt by you to change the subject. Now back to the OP. If you wish to say that GOD does not violate the Laws of Thermodynamics and that he exists within a closed system, you simply show that GOD is just another force, not supernatural, constantly diminishing, of no real concern to anyone and that in the future GOD will simply become more background noise. In addition, you make it impossible for GOD to have existed any longer than the Universe or to exist once the Universe is gone. You can try to get around that by pulling in miricles, infine power within a closed system, more giddunit, but as soon as you bring in the goddunit factor, the physical rules go out. The answer to your OP is that either GOD violates all the Laws of Physics, or GOD is simply another minor source of energy like a star. Buz, I understand that you are incapable of seeing this. I've said about all I can think of on this subject. Your OP is simply wrong. It's fine if you want to believe such things but you cannot support them with any evidence or logic.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 8:29 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2004 10:45 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 79 of 147 (167271)
12-11-2004 9:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Buzsaw
12-11-2004 9:51 PM
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Re: On topic.
Content deleted. This message has been edited by jar, 12-11-2004 10:13 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 12-11-2004 9:51 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 112 of 147 (167408)
12-12-2004 2:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 111 by PaulK
12-12-2004 2:31 PM
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Re: On topic.
or is this topic a complete waste of time ? I made that determination back in Message 79. 
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by PaulK, posted 12-12-2004 2:31 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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