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Wordswordsman Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
Hardly. Arguing with you is like hitting one's head against a dense wall. You wouldn't accept anything even if the proof were undeniable and right in front of you. Like I had said, you are a TRUE believer and nothing will stand in the way of that. You can't allow anything to stand in the way of your beliefs. See my thread "Why People want to believe there is a god" and this fits you to a tee. Your religious beliefs are all you have. You are too deluded to be truly rational. Even the others on here who don't agree with me most of the time see just how irrational you are. I won't be a performer in your little Cirque Du Lusion. WS: Get ready. I'm planning on following you to the other topics where I see you have been quite busy. I think it's time to clip your wings here and there. How will you ignore me? If you don't defend your claims, what value are they? All it will take is a little challenge here and there to expose the whole rotten lot of false accusations. Don't you realize that if you don't perform, you can be performed like a puppet on strings? I'll make the time for that somehow.  I have my sights on other much more interesting forums here that are much more productive, but for now you have my attention for some reason(s).  We'll see who appears irrational.  [This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002][/B][/QUOTE]
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days)  Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482: Hardly. Arguing with you is like hitting one's head against a dense wall. You wouldn't accept anything even if the proof were undeniable and right in front of you. Like I had said, you are a TRUE believer and nothing will stand in the way of that. You can't allow anything to stand in the way of your beliefs. See my thread "Why People want to believe there is a god" and this fits you to a tee. Your religious beliefs are all you have. You are too deluded to be truly rational. Even the others on here who don't agree with me most of the time see just how irrational you are. I won't be a performer in your little Cirque Du Lusion. WS: Get ready. I'm planning on following you to the other topics where I see you have been quite busy. I think it's time to clip your wings here and there. How will you ignore me? If you don't defend your claims, what value are they? All it will take is a little challenge here and there to expose the whole rotten lot of false accusations. Don't you realize that if you don't perform, you can be performed like a puppet on strings? I'll make the time for that somehow. I have my sights on other much more interesting forums here that are much more productive, but for now you have my attention for some reason(s). We'll see who appears irrational. [This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002][/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE] *************************** you are a nutter with too much free time...
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, I would actually, because knowledge and understanding comes from thought and experience-- none of which Adam had-- and is not simply a function of being told. Of course, the child now has experience with drinking from a toilet, but does that child understand? Doubtful.
quote: So we are back to the idea that God exacted thousands of years of punishment upon the entire human race because Adam-- having no understanding but only a command-- drank out of the toilet. Adam, as well, had no idea of the consequences. He hadn't been around long enough to get paddled or to understand death-- his proposed punishment. In addition, you are glossing over the main philosophical trust of the tale-- the origin of evil, the understanding of good and evil, ethics, morality. You make this all into a very trivial issue. God said, so there!!!!!
quote: LOL...... I post again, because you didn't addresst he point.
quote: This is a misreading on your part, in that case.
quote: Sophistry. This is a severely forced reading of the Hebrew. And yes, I am reading the Hebrew.
quote: When modified by an associated term. I cannot find any such modifiers.
quote: More sophistry. Are you actually reading this? "every plant of the field before it was in the earth" and "every herb of the field before it grew" Yet you claim that plants were growing? LOL....
quote: Re-read my post. I never said that verse 5 refered to the garden. I said that verse 9 could be said to refer to the Garden only and not to plants in general. I get the feeling that you really are not paying attention.
quote: ummm.... from verse 5.... Various translations read a bit differently. The Jewish Publication Society translates it as I have written. They ought to know their Hebrew eh?
quote: You're joking!!!! Christianity hold sway over nowhere near 98% of the population of the Earth.
quote: Gee... If I screw up I go to jail. Now THAT is authority!
quote: As is any religious authoritarian structure. This points seems to be frequently missed. Religion's power is in the consent of its believers, not is any God's magic.
quote: Right. Mine certainly are.....
quote: Valid only if you accept the truth of the myth.
quote: This is just blatantly silly. You cannot support this with anything other than faith.
quote: Valid only if one accepts the myth.
quote: Wrong. Chimps exhibit social structures every bit as complex as pre-civilization level human cultures.
quote: God is punishing the critters now too?
quote: 'k.... where are these proofs?
quote: Aha!!!!!! Ever wonder why there is such an injunction?
quote: God will reveal it when you die. Yes I know. That is pretty vicious though don't you think? I need the info now if I am to be saved. Not to mention that it is enoumously convenient for those without a leg to stand upon.
quote: I do not encounter rabid Osirian fundamentalists in this country, only rabid Christian fundamentalists. I have as much respect for the Bible as I do for any other mythology, though I think there are many other mythological systems that are much richer. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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nos482 Inactive Member |
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nos482 Inactive Member |
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John Inactive Member |
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nos482 Inactive Member |
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Wordswordsman Inactive Member |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
WS: That might be true among less than 2% of the population. Apart from your unbelief there is no other authority you can appeal to that has weight among practically every other human on earth.
*********************************************************+ Sure there is...it is called secular law. WS: And what is the core basis of secular law? What standard caused lawmakers to criminalize practically everything the Law of Moses condemned? Do you suppose secular law just sprang up without influence of religion? Somebody just thought up a bunch of stuff that ought to be illegal? Why would anything be illegal if there is no accountability to God? What would it matter? Whose idea was law?I haven't looked up the origin of German law, but I do know where American law came from. We have a lot of laws now that have nothing directly to do with biblical morality, but practically all of them are rooted in the 'right/wrong' foundation of religious law. Our heritage is directly linked to the Judeo-Christian Law Giver, God, specifically the Holy Scriptures of the Bible. I figure yours are too, like it or not. *********************************************************** ___________________________________________________ Your own words since you don't listen to anyone elses: "We have a lot of laws now that have nothing directly to do with biblical morality, but practically all of them are rooted in the 'right/wrong' foundation of religious law." And many of those laws are common to all cultures as well...in some cases they are observed among animals....big deal.________________________________________________________ You are without authority except that loosely held among your few peers.**************************************************++ Considering you were bashing Catholics you are without authority outside your little fundie sect. WS: I am not bashing Catholics. I oppose the official doctrines that were added, especially since the 4th century A.D.. Not only "fundies" oppose them. Evangelicals, Protestants, and more modern moves of God all agree the RCC is not mainstream, not conforming to the original gospel of Christ._________________________________________________________ Considering catholics make up the largest percentage of christians, they are the mainstream....so either they are wrong or all of you are wrong...----------------------------------------------------- That is by mutual consent, not by anything authoritative. Opinions of scientists able only to comment on the seen can't be greater than those of people able to "see" the unseen by faith as well as observe the seen.******************************************** Ok..by your logic then you cannot have a greater authority than a crackhead who is inspired by a talking pizza he sees while tripping. WS: Illogical thought there. In the first place an abuser of drugs has no credibility anywhere with anyone except maybe other drug abusers. His testimony is valueless in all societies. Secondly, if the only time the pizza can be preceived as talking is while tripping, again, that testimony is discredited. Nobody will ask for the evidence. He will be taken for treatments or locked up. Your analogy is very poor, demonstrating a blindness towards the things of God. In the Bible are many events where God intervened on Israel's behalf, witnessed by their enemies, who never denied those evidences. At the resurrection of Jesus some 500 dead people left their graves and walked among the living in Jerusalem. The Jews would loved to have disputed that, but there is no credible dispute anywhere on record. They are stuck with many such evidences. Whether you believe or disbelieve is pointless. Millions believed and do believe, and the record is undisputed EXCEPT by simple denials with no basis, much along the lines of denials of the Nazi-led Jewish Holocaust, in spite of the mountains of evidence. The denials like that only label people as fools.--------------------------------------------------- You are in denial and a fool then. You cannot even prove half the people lived or when for your eye witness account. Thousands of people saw JFK get shot and still there is no one account of what transpired even though the technology was far more advanced. And my analogy to a drug user is appropriate. You only see your god when you want to, I don't see him/her/it so your arguement has no validity. Maybe another christian in the same room does not see either....it is no different than the talking pizza of the crackhead. You see what you want to see to support your belief which is like a drug induced psychosis.--------------------------------------- They have the greater, more real perspective.***************************************************** Only compared to those who have had most of their brain removed. WS: I read a few years back about a revived drowning victim whose damaged brain was mostly removed, leaving only about 8% I think, but suffered no apparent loss. Evidently humans use very little of their brains. So what percentage are you talking about? It seems quite smart to me that if a person can observe and reason naturally as well as take on God's perspective, he is more supernatural and more complete than a person limited to the natural.That is the case here. I operate supernaturally as well as naturally, much like God does, as I am a child of God, a co-heir with His Son. You, however, are operating inefficiently, lacking the supernatural altogether, as well as much of the natural. ------------------------------------------------- That is your unsupported opinion which I will duly ignore. -----------------------------------------------------Almost all people hold some theistic belief, regarding an authority higher than themselves. ************************************************* And each one of them thinks they are right and all the others wrong. WS: I doubt it. Most theists are fairly ignorant of doctrine. They are marginal believers, whatever their religion. I find Muslims online that can't tell you what the Quran says. Same goes for Christians not knowing the Bible, and Hindus ignorant of most of the thousands of Hindu gods and goddesses.---------------------------------------------------------------- Your doubts are irrelevant. Facts are what are needed here. That the doctrine of different faiths are in some cases directly opposed to each other i.e. Mormons means that christians do not agree with each other and that each thinks they are right and all the others wrong.----------------------------------------------- Among the clear majority of Christians, according to virtually every poll, evolution theory is invalid, and many believe all the writings of evolutionists are demon-inspired.******************************************************** You might want to provide the exact citation for this evidence...preferably in a peer reviewed journal. WS: Why do atheists always require evidence only from peer-reviewed journals? I've found that most of them require paid subscriptions, and most are too technical to enjoy. Each professional has his own jopurnal that he can enjoy. They are not for the average person, and are not normally required for debates. What debate anywhere requires debaters to cite peer-reviewed journals?------------------------------------------------------- LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Oh why would we want evidence...it is so much better just to accept what other people say LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I am sorry that professional journals are not dumbed down enough for you to understand. It is typical zealot power grabbing...keep people dumb, keep research from continuing, shut down or kill opposition, bilk the susceptible of their money, repeat as needed. -------------------------------------------------- The Zogby and Gallop polls have recently updated the figures. "100 Scientists, National Poll Challenge Darwinism" from http://www.reviewevolution.com/...sRelease_100Scientists.php "Polls Show Change From Evolution to Creation"Revolution Against Evolution – A Revolution of the Love of God "Gallup Poll Analyses - Substantial Numbers of Americans Continue to Doubt Evolution as Explanation for Origin of HumansPOLL ANALYSES March 5, 2001 Substantial Numbers of Americans Continue to Doubt Evolution as Explanation for Origin of Humans Some Americans appear uncertain as to meaning of terms, however by Deborah Jordan BrooksGALLUP NEWS SERVICE. PRINCETON, NJ - Although most scientists subscribe to the theory of evolution..." (subscription required) Page Not Found ***March 5, 2001, shows that a majority of Americans believe in creationism over evolution, and only one third of the American public say, "Darwin's theory of evolution is well supported by evidence." Some believed that God participated in human evolution over a long period, but only 12% believed that "God had no part in the process." Gallup notes "The public has not notably changed its opinion on this question since Gallup started asking it in 1982."*** It appears that according to your opinion, two thirds of Americans are "fundies"? Cool.****************************+ I see you only included American christian polls. That is funny as it is consistent with the extremely poor education levels of average Americans compared to other developed countries. So these polls do not surprise me....if you broke it down by education level the numbers would be radically different with those with a higher education accepting evolution and those with little or none accepting whatever somebody tells them to accept....it would also be different if you polled christians in Italy for example.--------------------------------------- Although they might not all be so inspired, many people are convinced they are.**********************************************+ Many people think they have been abducted by UFOs WS: Maybe "many", but that group is a tiny minority. A more significant number is that a third of Americans believe aliens have visited earth at some time. alien abduction - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com BTW, that's a great site for atheists to get lost in.---------------------------------------------------------------- This hardly refutes my point. That lots of people believe something does not make it true. Evidence supports something or it does not...or there is no evidence. Only some christians are fundamentalists which is why it is easy to dismiss them as a radical fringe.------------------------------------- Whether you believe the Bible is the Word of God matters not. That doesn't take away from that authority.********************************************* Whether you believe or not matters not...you have no authority to distribute WS: Not so. The Bible says I have authority from Christ, and I do. I lay hands on the sick in the name of my Lord God Jesus and they recover and are delivered of problems medical science can't help them with. I speak with the authority of the Lord Jesus, and can preach the Word unto salvation of men. That is great authority, no less than intended for all believers.------------------------------------------------ Do you believe you are god? Do you believe you have direct orders from it? Do you hear voices? This sounds like megalomania. But since I don't believe in god or that jesus ever existed your paragraph is meaningless superstition.-------------------------------------- All other religions that sprang up among the separate descendants of Adam were departures from the original religion given by God, to this day. That original religion was consummated by Christ on the cross, he being the final blood sacrifice, opening the way to the completed path to the Father through him alone. There are no other ways to God, but by Jesus Christ.------------------------------------------------ Prove which one is correct then. ******************************************** The Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans etc would disagree and you have no evidence to support your claims or that they are wrong. WS: Their own idol gods betray them. Look at the depravity of people who adhere to such meaningless things. Look at their standard of living, their concept of decency, the lack of liberty and freedom, subjugated by tyrants and despots, with no Bill of Rights, no real justice, nothing anyone chooses to go live under. They seek to live in America, long to escape their lands for the island of freedom, though some of their own seek its destruction. Wiccan is witchcraft, hardly in the class of religion comparable to Christianity or world religions, the choice of Al Gore.---------------------------------------------------- Al Gore is a religion? All of those wonderful things you mentioned about America have to do with the plurality of cultures and relgions that are supported by SECULAR law which separates church and state. America is not free because of christianity. There are plenty of christian countries with horrible records. The US was a piss head colony under puritanical law. Those freedoms that exist in America and in other developed countries were only gained by breaking the populations free of the church. If fundies were in charge and made America a theocracy it would become just like Afghanistan under the Taliban.------------------------------------------- Chimpanzees build and maintain complex societies. Are they dependent upon the concept of sin? WS:1. God made them that way. 2. Their society is not as complex as that of humans. 3. They were never given the law of God, so are not accountable for sin, having no spirit in the image and likeness of God. 4. They don't praise and worship God, though they do share the burden of a damaged creation on account of man's sin. ***************************** 1. provide evidence 2. List 10 observations made about chimp society 3. provide evidence 4. provide evidence WS: What? You think you have evidence they came through evolution? What evidence? You have only explanation, a theory, with no tangible evidence whatsoever that can't be interpreted to support creation. As for the chimps, even Leaky doesn't observe they are religious or have received anything of instruction from God.Evidence? One practices what one believes. A lifetime of close observation of them has yielded no evidence at all. ------------------------------ Define the theory of evolution and the molecular basis for it. Please provide the citations that show that nobody has observed complex chimp behavior (hint: Jane Goodall). That no evidence at all is mountains of evidence. Your ignorance on the subject of evolution is not surprising. It is easier to oppose blindly than to actually get off your lazy ass and learn.----------------------------------- But lifetimes of observing people practicing Christianity has netted many testimonies of such evidence as required for many more to believe in God. Such evidences are not material enough to lay on the table for all to see. They are experiences, many witnessed. In our courts the testimony of an eye-witness is acceptable evidence for a conviction if there is any other evidence to support that.------------------------------------------ Which is why a lot of innocent people go to jail. Eye witness testimony is the most unreliable of evidences. Again, you arguement is that people who already believe see things that help them believe.--------------------------------------------------- Christianity has millions of eye-witnesses of acts of God, and resultant blessings to support their claims. It is acceptable among reasonable people. Let the irreverant be blind.---------------------------------------------- Every religion has millions of "eye-witness" accounts of acts of their god/gods. Irrelevant. Every field of science has millions of reproducible data points that people of all backgrounds have observed.-------------------------------------------- WS: Many respected statisticians, both secular and Bible-believing have analyzed the facts around the writings on the Bible, presenting powerful mathematical probabilities that eliminate coincidences and fraudulent last days creation ofthe books of the Bible. Many books arein print discussing the mathematical purity of Holy Scriptues and their inter-relationships.************************************* LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!List them and provide references...LOL!!!! WS: Start with these. If you are really interested I will provide lots of links of probability analyses of the Bible. Most skeptics just dismiss those anyway, so why ask for them? Will you read them if I go look them up? Theomatics http://www.theomatics.com/theomatics/home.html WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION 2021, 10 Most of the technical ones are in Christian creationist websites. Interested? Theomatics is just one such field of study.********************************************** Vegomatic is a better one WS: You seem to lack a lot of general knowledge. Theomatics is a mathematical application to Scriptures. A Vegomatic processes food.--------------------------------------------------- You seem to lack any knowledge of irony..but that is not surprising.--------------------------------------------------- That the various authors (40 or so) living separately in different times, few having access to all or most of the writings of the others (except the NT authors), being so completely harmonious is not considered an accident, but evidence of a central magnificent 'Chairman' directing the writings over a period of many centuries. No mortal man could have seen to the harmony of those writings. That is just one of dozens of reasons men understand the writings were "God-breathed", i.e. inspired by God in both spoken word and thought.************************************************* Supply evidence LOL!!!! WS: I note that you make no substantive contributions to the discussion, simply requiring evidence which you then deny anyway.The evidence is easily obtained with a little work in a search engine. MUCH is available online concerning the Bible and how its contents are known to be inspired. I could rather post huge texts of all that, filling mailboxes galore. How about that? ----------------------------------------------------------------- LOL! What have you contributed to anything except to say the worldview of yours is the best and that everyone else is stupid and wrong. And do you get all evidence from the internet? You should be less lazy and actually access primary literature. I can find sites that deny the holocaust online or Pamela Anderson giving head to rock stars if I want...that you can find people with the same warped views as yourself online is hardly a surprise or support for your cause.---------------------------------------------- Regardless of the evidences that support the inspiration of the Bible, the unseen God of the Bible requires belief by faith, not evidence alone. He imputed righteousness all along through simple acts of faith, believing the least claim of him but placing themselves in jeopardy doing so.********************************** It must be regardless of the evidence as you have provided nothing but " the bible is true cuz the bible says its true and my buddies say the bible is true therefore it is true". WS: I have provided first person testimony, and there are thousands of books, news articles, textbooks, encyclopedias, and other sources that provide much evidence. Skeptics just disbelieve anyway, illogically, without reason. It isn't practical to list much of it except for people genuinely seeking the information. You are not.-------------------------------------------------- Convenient excuse by you...especially since you have never read anything about evolution.--------------------------------- But since it requires faith to be true it must be false as John and I both do not believe.********************************** WS: Belief or not, the truth remain true. The truth is eternal and unchangeable. Belief or unbelief is voluntary with eternal consequences.-------------------------------------------------- Hey amazing...we argee on your first sentence ---------------------------------- If God had required belief in strictly empirical evidence, then what would he have following him?****************************************** Well educated human beings WS: Contrarily, the more people become "educated" in the secular, the farther they seem to go away from God. Education has value, but too much of it results in exposure to unbelief and a washing away of subtle truths. Peole become distracted, mired down in the affairs of life, missing the quiet voice of the Spirit. --------------------------------------------- LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Keep the people stupid and unquestioning like cows and then they won't wake up and realize they are following a myth blindly. ---------------------------------------------- A bunch of humans believing the evidence, but not particularly believing or trusting HIM. The faith must come first, which He provides the seed of to believe. Then He allows the empirical evidence to pile up, building faith.******************************************+ Again circular arugement, you beleive so the evidence has to support your belief and if it does not it actually does...convenient religion...if you thought the bible entitled you to a free cash withdrawal from your local bank you would be a bankrobber with a clear conscience. WS: Not possible. The Bible never contradicts itself. I already know theft is unlawful, so would never accept an interpretation like yours.---------------------------------------------------------- If it did not contradict itself there would not be so many sects with so many different interpretations of what it says.-------------------------------------- But, you are a free-will agent allowed by God to plow on down the row of your choosing. I came here (and other places) to encourage any other Christians that might read and be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them.********************************************************+ Define what a Christian is since you said most sects (particlarly catholics) are full of crap. WS: A devoted follower of Jesus Christ, possessing His Spirit, His teachings (gospel-good news), and those of His apostles who defined the particulars of the Church setup and operation, as well as living guides, to whom He promised the "more" by the Spirit. Whatever is taught in the New Testament is part of the gospel of Christ, though some is clearly cultural accomodation that can be omitted, such as modes of dress and transportation. The RCC has added the papal authority, which is not Bible-sanctioned. Jesus specifically prohibited several of their major acts.----------------------------------------------------- Ok let me ask this differently, which groups of christian do you not consider to be real christians?---------------------------------- I will continue to expose the fallacy of such arguments as yours as being nothing more than simple non-belief based on simple error-ridden opinion with no basis**************************************** Continue? I did not see that you started WS: "Nos" failed to respond to my disproof of his false alegations..His penchant for finding contradictions in the Bible are beginning to cause his embarrassment. It appears you, too, are on that list. ------------------------------------------------------------- Actually nos smacked you around but you just don't see it...ignorance is bliss.------------------------------ He doesn't want you or anyone else your way or the way of all other religions, including Judaism in any of its ancient or modern forms. He bought every human with His own blood, and requires that each of us just accept that and obey Him.**************************************** Ah so you hate Jews to...great. WS: You exhibit lack of reading comprehension. I left no place for you to arrive at that conclusion. I disrespect their doctrine, believing what Jesus and His apostles had to say about it. Theirs is abolished in the cross. That in no way leaves room for a Christian to hate Jews. They are prime candidates for conversion to Christianity, where they can follow their Messiah.---------------------------------------------------- I think the jews do just fine by themselves...and don't need your conversion...they already have a culture devoted to learning...why would they switch to yours? And their religion preceded yours....so if anyone is right they are There is the One God, a plural trinity of Persons in perfect united harmony, who is revealed in the Bible.********************************** Hindu's have many...and they look cooler WS: Like the great blue stone elephant they pour thousands of precious milk upon daily while children suffer malnutrition for lack of milk? There are hundreds of rediculous acts that destroy them in India and Kashmir, things that would shock most people. Those "cooler" idols are their destruction. They live about 45 years, worn out from malnutrition and excessively hard work and long hours. Yeah, they really have something over there! Do you imagine people from all over the world yearn to live there? I notice they make a flood coming to America. I wonder what the net gain/loss is.------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm maybe because christian colonialists screwed them all over!People like you went over..destroyed their lands and then wonder that they have problems now...LOL! That Bible details the conditions that God requires for salvation and eternal life with Him. His Word says the only path to the Father is by way of his Son, Jesus the Messiah. Obtaining the Heaven (God's Heaven) of the Bible is by one path alone. Gaining it through some other path through some other religion is not possible this side of the cross of Christ.*************************************** But on the other side it works just fine...LOL WS: That broad path to eternal destruction lies on the otehr side where you appear to be. You should reconsider. Sure it works "fine" for a while. Sometimes it's sort of fun to wallow in one's unforgiven sins, but it isn't a lasting satisfaction. There remains that nagging realization our life is but a vapor, a flash in the pan, a test. Eternity is only a flicker away. Poof! It's over so quickly, and so many find themselves there empty handed, ashamed.------------------------------------ You have no evidence of this...and I am doing fine now and will be in the future without your mythology. Those other religions must provide their own eternal destinies in this life, but all with result in a dead-end in the Hell of the Bible. It is rediculous to assert that once the Father gave his Son to be sacrificed for the sins of many that people can come to Him by obedience to some set of rules on earth that ignore that gift to mankind.************************ It is stupid to assert that your religion is correct and all others are wrong WS: Your resort to such words only diminishes your effectiveness. Please look up the word "stupid". I have many good, logical, reasonable, well considered, peer-reviewed reasons to believe the way I do, along with many millions of people around the world who believe as I do.-------------- Guess you will present them at some point? All others severely lack evidence of any interaction with any god thay claim. None of them are blessed by their gods. Just cursed. Theirs don't deliver them. They remain in their misery. But America has been delivered as a nation many times, as was and is Israel, as realized by our generals, in times crushing defeat was all one could reasonably expect, from the voyage of the Pilgrims, to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the great wars.--------------------------------------------- All other religions have just as much evidence as yours. --------------------------- Plenty of people argue against creationists Islamists as well...and nice to see you are a consistent bigot in that you hate jews, muslims, and catholics...now just denigrate a few more relgions and you will have your bases covered and maybe candidacy for the National Front. WS: They argue the Islamic stand against evolution, but not Islam itself like they do against Christianity.----------------------------------------------- First, do you know this for a fact or are you just spouting. Second, it is fundamentalists like you that draw the argument about evoltion into religion not the other way around. If a muslim says evolution is wrong because the Quran says so he will get the same response as a christian...there are even examples on this forum. Like I said, Islam is no less exclusive than Christianity as to path to God, yet your type just won't attack them. Now, either you can point out where I said I hate those people, or you stand as one here who has lied, apparently deliberately. This isn't in the class of just posting something not verifiable or in ignorance. It is a bonafide falsehood on its face.----------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm...you claim anyone that disagrees with your sect worldview is going to hell...I guess you love all those alternative views...you said jews are prime candidates for conversion...I guess you mean forced conversion......you calling me a liar does not make your case any stronger.-------------------------- Atheists and other skeptics so often claim they are just as moral as Christians. So what makes you think lying like that is equal to Christian morality? Is that an acceptable practice among your peers? It appears to me, from your blatant skepticism and lack of integrity is proof our observations of the negative effects of atheism on society are in fact destructive. Will you remain part of that problem?---------------------------- I am more moral than you. I don't base my personal standards on the belief that anything I do is justified by a mythical figure, that I should not do wrong for fear of punishment, that I should only do good because I expect a big reward when I die. My skepticism like that of other skeptics is a sign of intelligence.You are in no position to question my integrity. Your fundie views are the danger to society...so you are the problem not me....so yes, I fully intend to stay a part of your problem. Cheers
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
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Wordswordsman Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
Yes, I would actually, because knowledge and understanding comes from thought and experience-- none of which Adam had-- and is not simply a function of being told. Of course, the child now has experience with drinking from a toilet, but does that child understand? Doubtful. WS: Interesting. In America knowledge is imparted in schools by teachers who tell our children about things they might never actually experience. You people appear to need teachers. I remember having to learn many things I didn't fully understand, pasing tests on the material. Eventually the understanding came when less distracted. I contend Adam received knowledge of evil through the teaching of God in the one law of the Garden. Whether he understood the full portent of that law and the consequence is moot. He was warned.
quote: So we are back to the idea that God exacted thousands of years of punishment upon the entire human race because Adam-- having no understanding but only a command-- drank out of the toilet. Adam, as well, had no idea of the consequences. He hadn't been around long enough to get paddled or to understand death-- his proposed punishment. WS: God can't be blamed for that punishment. It wasn't God who introduced sin to Adam. It was the devil, in the serpent. God simply warned of the consequence of following the devil's advice. The natural effect follows the cause- sin brings death, not from God. Adam had the entire revelation of the consequence, but chose to heed the devil, that he would NOT surely die. He took the wrong side of the issue. In addition, you are glossing over the main philosophical trust of the tale-- the origin of evil, the understanding of good and evil, ethics, morality. You make this all into a very trivial issue. God said, so there!!!!! WS: The origin of evil was in the rebellion of Lucifer, the fallen angel called the devil. The overall mesage of the Genesis account we discuss here was not what you say. It entered in, but the message was that man fell in sin, suffered consequences, and the devil would be defeated because of it. The salvation message enters in at that point, and is progressively developed through further revelation throughout Scriptures. The message was concerning the one law in the Garden, not all morality issues. Those are covered later in other Books.
quote: More sophistry. Are you actually reading this? "every plant of the field before it was in the earth" and "every herb of the field before it grew" Yet you claim that plants were growing? LOL.... WS: You are not using proper exegesis, but border on isogesis. It won't be necessary to paste Hebrew text on this one.Consider this once more: Genesis 2:4-5 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, [5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. In verse 4 we see the subject is the (heavens and) earth. In verse 5 every plant was before the earth, as in presented to the earth. Before the comma we have a complete thought. What is the subject of "it"? The creation. The plants of the field were 'before' it, presente to it, on the earth. Every plant, not a few primitive forms like ferns that would evolve into trees.The next phrase begins with "and", expressing a separate thought, also using the "before it" the same way "before it" is used in 4a. "and every herb of the field before it grew:" means every one of those plants before the creation (earth) grew. The colon denotes there is a subsequent thought resulting from that action.1. "for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth," The method of watering the plants was not by rain, but they were given idealic conditions, that of a mist rising from the ground, very efficiently providing needed water for growth, indicating the soil was moist, also. 2. "and there was not a man to till the ground."There would be no need to till the ground if plants had not been growing. Growing plants need attention, else they remain wild and not very useful. What other reason would the need for tilling the ground be? People till the ground to CONTROL vegetative growth, replacing with more desirable plants. So we have the ideal growing conditions with plants needing a gardener. THEN man is made to tend to it.
quote: Re-read my post. I never said that verse 5 refered to the garden. I said that verse 9 could be said to refer to the Garden only and not to plants in general. I get the feeling that you really are not paying attention. WS: That is obvious, that verse 9 applies to the Garden. Outside the Garden the plants were already there and growing. I didn't challenge that.
quote: ummm.... from verse 5.... Various translations read a bit differently. The Jewish Publication Society translates it as I have written. They ought to know their Hebrew eh? WS: Bible scholars are finding there are many Jewish works in recent years that modify the translations to suit the modern 'evolved' Judaism tenets unlike the original orthodox Judaism. It is necessary to take the Hebrew text and apply proper exegesis, looking at the entire context as well as individual words, to derive the true message. Translators have done that, beginnig with the KJV. That corrects Jewish attempts to write-out the 'Christ concept' as revelaed in the Scriptures any way they can.
quote: You're joking!!!! Christianity hold sway over nowhere near 98% of the population of the Earth. WS: The 2% I was referring to is the percentage of atheists. We know that bunch doesn't believe the Bible is the Word of God. But many people of earth do believe it, Christian or not. Jews believe it (Tanach) is. Many others even quote from the Bible, though believe they have a moerecent revelation of God. Few religions officially denounce the Bible, accepting that as ONE of the revelations of God. Even Hindus, upon discovering Jesus, will place a western picure of Him on the wall amid all their other gods. The problem is mostly of people accepting substitutes alongside the real one.
quote: Gee... If I screw up I go to jail. Now THAT is authority! WS: Almost every human on earth accepts a higher authority, a god, or an ideology larger than humanity, except your 2%.
quote: As is any religious authoritarian structure. This points seems to be frequently missed. Religion's power is in the consent of its believers, not is any God's magic. WS: That might hold true for false religions, but God has revealed himself and interacted among men convincingly.
quote: Right. Mine certainly are..... WS: I agree.
quote: Valid only if you accept the truth of the myth. WS: Valid whether one accepts or not. Lack of evidence acceptable to you is no proof of non-existence.
quote: Wrong. Chimps exhibit social structures every bit as complex as pre-civilization level human cultures. WS: There is no proof we know all about those ancient cultures. We can make assumptions from writings and artifacts, but so far no chimp is known to make and hunt with a bow and arrow, plow and plant, make clothes, and make art representing nature, among many other attributes of ancient societies.
quote: God is punishing the critters now too? WS: All of creation cries out for relief.
quote: 'k.... where are these proofs? WS: I'll begin a separate post or thread, later. Too large for here.
quote: Aha!!!!!! Ever wonder why there is such an injunction?
quote: God will reveal it when you die. Yes I know. That is pretty vicious though don't you think? I need the info now if I am to be saved. WS: If you wait till then, you will find you waited too long. You are already warned in this life. If you reject what is already revealed, you have no hope later, hanging onto false myths that lead nowhere but Hell. 
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6504 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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