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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: The Existence of Jesus Christ | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2331 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
rand, what about current non-believers that find biblical studies fascinating but haven't found anything YET to convince them of the truth of the bible as a whole.
While there are some very militant atheists out there, for the most part those I know are actually quite open-minded. If the evidence was found they would be believers. Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" select * from USERS where CLUE > 0 http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I am not denying that unbelievers can be good scholars. I just think it works both ways.
I do think that faith more than often arises through some direct interaction with God, and not just reviewing the evidence. That is not to say the evidence does not lend credence to belief in Jesus and the gospels, but just that approaching something of that importance in one's life usually entails a larger process. Most things are like that. I did not fall in love with my wife, nor think she fell in love with me through pure objective analysis, and I am not even sure such a thing as pure objective analyis in such a situation can exist apart from help from God. In terms of coming to a faith relationship with God, I think God can grant a man more abilities than normal to be objective, but that humanity without such help is not impartial and objective. Objectivity is somewhat illusory, though degrees of it do exist. For me, I just tried to determine what was real, from a philosophical perspective, and what I knew to be true. I started with the idea that I know that I exist, and then the next assumption was that I believe I exist in 2 different basic states, asleep and dreaming and awake, and the third was that reality was probably at least somewhat independent of me, which indicated to me at the time, that God was real. That was the musings of a young man, but at this stage my own personal experience with Jesus makes such philosophical musings a moot point whether they were correct or not. I generally think faith starts as an intuition or hunch, and then all the reasoning is there to deal with the doubts. Is this intuition real or imagined, for example? Is God really communicating via whatever, a coincidence, the Bible, a religious experience, etc,...? I think relying exclusively on the incomplete study of history or on science, etc,...relies too much upon a level of knowledge that is woefully incomplete and primitive (compared at least in science to what we will know hundreds of years from now), and that some level of personally testing one's faith in real life is also necessary. This message has been edited by randman, 05-31-2005 04:56 PM
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CodeTrainer Inactive Member |
You preached several faithful claims, all wrong, not backed by evidence--Iasion
Faithful to the facts. Iasion: "The Heaven's Gate cult believed in the facts of the space-ship enough to go to martyrdom. Suicide bombers believe in their faith enough to go to martyrdom. Me: => That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes. Nobody dies to support what they know is a myth. - Alan
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Brad Member (Idle past 4817 days) Posts: 143 From: Portland OR, USA Joined: |
That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes. Um...are you saying that people don't blow themselves up, and heaven's gate cult didn't kill themselves? Let me rephrase what you're saying, and you correct me so I can understand. "Although Heaven's Gate and suicide bombers kill themselves for their belief, nobody dies for what they know is a myth." Is that what you're saying? If that's the case do we measure the most correct religion by the number of people who have died for it? Brad
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CodeTrainer Inactive Member |
Randman: I am not denying that unbelievers can be good scholars. I just think it works both ways. ____I do think that faith more than often arises through some direct interaction with God, and not just reviewing the evidence. That is not to say the evidence does not lend credence to belief in Jesus and the gospels, but just that approaching something of that importance in one's life usually entails a larger process.
Me ==> There are those who will believe snippets from the "Gnostic gospels" contrary to all historical evidence, simply because they cannot separate themselves from their dogmatic faith that the real Gospels were not true. After all, they think in this darkness of clouded logic, how could it be true, since they cannot beileve that such things would be true? And like swallowing anything else from Tacitus or whoever reporting on whatever in history, unless it contradicts their beloved ideas. Was Nero's burning of Rome a "rumor"? Polycarp's writings and the others that were contemporary with Jesus' day, or at least the apostles', were they "rumors"? Along with the rest of the writings of those days. They have evidently done exactly that: believed the "Jesus-never-existed" lie, historically absolutely untenable, and when something comes around that makes them doubt their dogmatic faith in the myth, they redouble their efforts at repeating the mantras and convincing themselves and others. - Alan
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CodeTrainer Inactive Member |
Re: Jesus was real
(Alan That is exactly the point. The apostles and the Christians contemporary with the times believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ so strongly that they happily went to their martyrdom. These were people who knew for a fact with their own eyes. (Shadow Um...are you saying that people don't blow themselves up, and heaven's gate cult didn't kill themselves? Let me rephrase what you're saying, and you correct me so I can understand. ___"Although Heaven's Gate and suicide bombers kill themselves for their belief, nobody dies for what they know is a myth." ___Is that what you're saying? If that's the case do we measure the most correct religion by the number of people who have died for it?--Brad Alan: ==> Those folks died, and people still die, for myths that they believe to be real. Those who had witnessed Jesus with their own eyes in his resurrected body were not shaken by threats of death, as they had seen it conqered. If it were a myth, then they would have known a myth, and would not have continued on for it. All twelve apostles kept the same story and signed their "affidavits" with their own blood, with the exception of John who suffered the boiling pot. For each of the dozens of extra-Biblical historical references to Christ, and the hundreds that followed closely in years following, you can try to attack each one individually, as in Tacitus this, one reference that, interpolation here and there, blah blah blah, and it continues as a one-themed story that gets its force from the single centralizing fact: The resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Gospels written by the apostles signed in blood. Hundreds of false Messiahs rose and fell, even contemporaries with Josephus, and imagine that, while their existance is treated as believable, one of the Messiahs gets the Orwellian "non-person" treatment by historian revisionists. Go figure. The evidence being that the reports are not believable (by the skeptics). Go figure. -Alan This message has been edited by CodeTrainer, 06-02-2005 05:57 PM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I agree completely. The claim that Paul never mentions the life, death, and bodily resurrection of Jesus is particularly egregious and easily refuted, but they cling to it nonetheless.
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Brad Member (Idle past 4817 days) Posts: 143 From: Portland OR, USA Joined: |
C'mon, now you're just being silly! You're trying to tell me that the apostles deaths prove their faith legitimate, but when someone else dies for what they believe in this proves it false? Do you not see the contradiction?!?
Brad
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4022 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Ok., if Jesus existed, give me a physical description. While locals in Jerusalem and nearby might have seen him in action, once Paul and Co. departed to distant cities, I bet the first question asked by those converting,was 'What did He look like?' While Paul may have only seen a vision, his visits to the church leaders could have answered his query. Instead of the idealised portraits of a European that all churches have persisted with, show me the Jewish Jesus.
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Brad Member (Idle past 4817 days) Posts: 143 From: Portland OR, USA Joined: |
Well, the very first paintings of Jesus show him beardless and very dark skinned. He performs his miracles with a 'magic wand' or staff. A picture of jesus raising Lazarus from the dead shows Jesus waving his small staff over Lazarus' tomb. Sorry I can't be more descriptive, but all the pictures of him seem to resemble other "God-men," strange.
Brad
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3471 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings,
quote: Once more you totally fail to grasp the point. The Heaven's gate cult killed themselves because they BELIEVED. Suicide bombers die for what they BELIEVE. Christian martyrs (allegedly) died because they BELIEVED. You claim this BELIEF proves its true. Therefore, your argument claims the Heaven's Gate cult's beliefs were TRUE. Do you get my point yet? Just because someone BELIEVES in something enough to die for it is not proof it is true at all. Iasion
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3471 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings again,
quote: Once more, randman shows he is unable to properly READ my posts or comprehend my argument. I did NOT claim Paul never mentioned the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ. My point is that Paul discusses these events as spiritual things which apparently took place on the astral plane. Yes,Paul mentions these events. No,Paul never describes them as earthly events. I do not think randman will ever grasp this distinction, but for lurkers, here is the point : Paul's comments MAY refer to an earthly being,Paul's comments MAY refer to a spiritual being. There are many comments in Paul which refer to a spiritual Christ (e.g. "Christ in you the hope of glory" cannot be a physical Christ inside us can it?) But NONE of Paul's comments clearly refer to an EARTHLY Jesus. Paul NEVER mentions :* Mary, Joseph, the birth legends, * the sermons and teachings of Jesus * the healings and miracles * the trial or Pilate * the empty tomb. This is the point which apologists like randman will never grasp - there is NOTHING in PAUL which is CLEARLY referring to an EARTHLY Jesus - merely vague spiritual comments about the Risen Christ. Suppose you read Paul WITHOUT knowing anything about the Gospels or other Christian writings - what can we learn about the eatthly life of Jesus from Paul? Nothing -no dates, no places, no names or people, no events such as the trial, nothing about the empty tomb... To those who are following the thread, I hope you appreciate why I gave up answering randman's preachings - he doesn't read what I write. I claimed "Jesus never existed",he ranted "its a lie that the majority of scholars say Jesus never existed", getting what I said totally backwards. I noted "someone wrote the letters of Paul, so we call that person Paul"he ranted "its false to claim Paul never existed" getting what I said totally backwards again. I argued "there is nothing in Paul which clearly about an Earthly Jesus"yet randman STILL doesn't get it - he cannot seem to grasp the distinction between a spiritual being and an earthly one. Consider the famous passage "born of woman". Now,HOW MANY humans have been "born of woman" ? i.e. HOW MANY humans were NOT "born of woman". Obviously, every single human being in history was "born of woman". So,to describve someone as "born of woman" is like saying : "he breathed air" - its OBVIOUS. So,the only reason someone would say Christ was "born of woman" would be if this would NOT be a natural conclusion - i.e. Paul cannot be referring to a normal human being. Paul is reffering to a being like found in the Ascension of Isaiah, or someone like Attis, or Osiris - a SPIRITUAL BEING. Iasion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
quote: So Paul is referring to the astral plane 1 Cor. 15: 3-6?
quote: And his appearance to Peter, the 12 apostles (confirming that part of the gospel story I might add), and the 500, and to his own natural brother, that was just an astral being they had never met in the flesh who told them how He was crucified, buried and rose again, but then again all over in the astral plane, and by golly, those Jewish fishermen took this appearance as just a vision, not a literal resurrection, and Paul means it the same way. Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical. When was the last time you read the epistles? While admittedly Paul stresses the spiritual realm and gifts quite a bit, he is adament about Jesus's bodily death, burial and resurrection. Moreover, why was Christ crucified a stumbling block to men if it was merely some event that occurred on the astral plane, and what do you think Paul meant when he claims, over and over and over again, that Jesus was crucified? You claim Paul makes no mention of Jesus' earthly life or lineage, but in Romans 1:3 flat out says:
quote: Are astral beings descendants of David or Jewish? How about this?
[quote] For Christ, our passover lamb has been sacrificed. (1 Cor 5:7) [quote]
Keep in mind this is not even the most eloquent areas refuting the claim Jesus was only an astral being. Paul talks of length about the bodily sacrifice and literal resurrection, and how Jesus, as a man like Adam, restored mankind to redemption.This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 09:55 PM This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 10:05 PM This message has been edited by randman, 06-02-2005 10:25 PM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It's proof that they believe it, and that seems to be something you guys fail to see. Sure, their belief could be wrong, but they believe it is true. They believe the man Jesus was crucified, buried and rose again, and for this they are crucified.
They were not crucified because they saw some angel or spirit on the astral plane. To pretend that there is a logical contradiction here is just wrong. Yes, part of the evidence for the resurrection is indeed that they believed it, and certainly false beliefs have been believed as well, but there is no contradiction because the fact they believed they saw it is what is confirmed by their willingness to die for it. We can look at Heaven's Gates claims which led to suicide and ask if there are similar reasoning. Did they all meet and know someone intimately who was killed and then came to life for example? No, they did not.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
We can look at Heaven's Gates claims which led to suicide and ask if there are similar reasoning. Did they all meet and know someone intimately who was killed and then came to life for example? No, they did not. no. but they knew someone who had contact with space aliens, and had been on an alien spaceship disguised as a comet. and besides, the buddhists all know someone who died and came back to life: the buddha. otherwise known as his holiness, the dalai lama. claims are not always true. lots of people are willing to die for their faith, no matter the religion or the veracity of it.
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