For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.

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f you had followed the thread you might possibly have noticed that I was responding to Schrafinator's claim that India is superior because of its religious sexual imagery

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I don't quite remember her using the word "superior" - can you point me towards it?

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to which I answered with the information about temple prostitution of children.

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So - even pre-1960s (Which you seem to think is a watermark period), your christian priests were still abusing children - what does that have to do with the core issue?

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Men often try to get their partners involved in porn with them, but most women just feel alienated by it,

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So women can't find pornography on their own? they need a man to guide them towards it? How do you account for the raising numbers of women directors making pornograhy for women? What about Lesbians, do men guide them to Pornography?

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Porn trains a person in preferences that may be imposed on the spouse against (her) wishes

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I don't get what you mean about perferences? Kissing? anal sex, oral, urnating on each other? dressing up as Batman and Catwoman,you need to be less vague in your posts.

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Porn trains a person in preferences that may be imposed on the spouse against (her) wishes, or lead a person to look outside the marriage to fulfill them.

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So if I watch a movie that features scenes of Coprophilia or Urolagnia I'll be trained to enjoy such things and then force my girlfriend to become involved. Even if I find such practices distastful, the viewing of such material will "change" me?Please be precise in your answers.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 11:53 AM

You have said this is the main theme a couple of times, you still have not backed this viewpoint.Can you provide any evidence for this viewpoint?

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To me it's obvious.

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it's not to me - you either need to support your assumption or withdraw it.How does this statement:

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There is a reason, maybe, wny most women don't like porn. They recognize it instantly as degrading to them.

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match up with this one?

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But then I'm not a woman and so am not sure what they think.

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Please support the statement that most women don't like porn. You also need to provide evidence that "instantly" recognize that it is degrading to them.

Are you taking the piss? is that suppose to be a serious question?I really expect better from you.

Great that's my second question - how about you answer the first?

Holmes - How does this affect the rights of European producers to import their material for american consumption - will they have to comply with regulations on fonts etc?(BTW I have a great porn regulation story I'll tell you when I get back from dinner).

Can you define for us what is in a "hardcore Hetrosexual" film for us?What if the man is strapped to the bed and the woman goes to work on him with a sex toy? is that still hetrosexual? who's the master and the slave in that situation?

This is a wind-up isn't it?While I don't doubt that some animals may be used in pornography movies - why is she going to use one to simulate oral sex? What is hardcore about a woman putting a snake in her mouth? Why not just a straight forward honest to god penis?I'm baffled what sort of material you have been watching - it does not sound of interest to most adult males.

sure you do - the "gonzo" home-made porn that has become very popular is full of them - I have a friend who works in the industry so he fills me in.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:26 PM

It seems to me that we are debating two different things - Holmes and I (and a couple of others) seem to be discuss pornography in the broader sense from the girl with her webcam to the man and his wife with a video camera to the corporate produced and released material (which is very significant). Most of you seem to be focusing entirely on the corporate material. It's sort of like going to the multiplex and then complaining movies are rubbish because they are all shallow blockbusters.In addition, many of you are unwilling to either discuss porn or clarify your positions in any meanful detail. That is your right but it makes it impossible to have any form of debate.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:52 PMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 06:57 PM

Hah - it's salary here, you NEVER NEVER discuss how much money you earn with people (not even your family).For me it's not a matter of like or dislike (and I don't like or watch porn), it's a matter of freedom.

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it's a way of getting even I suppose since what women want out of sex is usually not quite what men want them to want.

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So what is it that women want out of sex? in my experience it has varied greatly from sexual partner to partner. The problem stems from a lack of communication, how is either partner suppose to know if you are unable to discuss it.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Jun-2005 04:06 AM

This goes back to what I said earlier - you seem to discussing mainstream coporate porn. The answer is not to say "porn is bad" but support the more diverse material that is out there.If you don't like Walmart and the effect that it has on the shopping experience (and what it does to it's workforce) - don't shop at walmark! Don't suggest that shopping is bad instead!

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I might also point out that you are speaking from the male point of view, about what's "healthy" for MEN, while a woman really might have a lot healthier sense of security and healthier self-esteem if she could count on a man's finding all his sexual pleasure with HER just as she is without the threat of his thinking of someone else or wishing she looked or acted different.

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But lots of women like to use sex toys such as vibrators and dildos - they are clearly not finding all of their sexual pleasure with a male.Is this a bad thing? Women should not be sexually aware of their own bodies and take pleasure in their own company? Is that not the ultimate "security"?

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There isn't the slightest pornographic image in the Bible. It describes many sexual situations but there is nothing pornographic -- erotically stimulating -- about any of them.

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ah...but those things are all in the eye of the beholder. There was a famous trial about a poem called"The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name"which featured a centurion performing sexual acts on Jesus. Clearly this work was inspired by the Bible.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Jun-2005 01:09 PMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 29-Jun-2005 01:13 PM

This harks back to an earlier point I was making - it's impossible to have a sensible debate about this because half of the debaters want to talk about some abstract thing called "porn" without actually debating any specifics. Very strange......