Terrorism in London

truly, you are in denial.

Of course they can manage some terrorist attacks, they being much easier to carry out in Europe because so many islamists live there and cooperate as al qaeda cells. But were it not for iraq, there would be many more than the occasional attack.

Clinton also had Iraq and Hussein in his sights. The US has not gained any control over oil and the oil markets. Were that the case, and were that the motive, they'd have kept the price under control too. The best policy the US could have carried out, if it was about oil, was to lift sanctions against Hussein and let iraqi oil flow freely and competitively in the world market.And did you know that the US buys little oil from the ME? Canada is the biggest supplier, followed by, I think, Mexico and venezuela.

What evidence have you that the US has gained control over international oil markets for advantage over users? There is none. The democrats originally supported the war - before they didn't. Were they after this nebulous geopolitical oil control too? Or is that only a Republicna thing? Or did the Republicans fool the democrats, who wisened up to this conspiracy later on?Even the Arab press has let go of the war for oil stuff, so untenable is it in light of all the facts.

I have identifiesd several reasons: The islamists are tied up in iraq, making another 9/11 much ahrder to carry off. They're afraid of the US, especially that the US will bring yet another democracy to their world in the battle for the hearts and minds of muslims. Europe is an easier target, especially for smaller scale attacks such as those in GB and Spain, compared to 9/11. There's also that the US has tightened up security far better than either of those countries.But a bottom line remains: there are so many Jiahdis in iraq, and so much of their money is being spent there, that their capacity for mayhem elsewhere has been reduced. There's also that they're recruiting less now that the US, adn not them, is seen as "the strong horse." And, their attacks on fellow Musims (Shia, and they're Sunni) have caused blowback in the Islamic world, furthering the process of their discreditation, adn further weakening their recruitment aims.But, as long as they are muslims who take the war verses and sharia Law for what they say, there will be islamist movements of varying strength and lethality.

Again, read tehari who, BTW, is iranian.

maybe we;ve been talking right by one another. I thought you were arguing that there has been a healthy, open dissent within Arab and iranian societies, and I was arguing that there has not. If I now underatand, you are saying the same, and so does tehari. police states, including theocracy police states, do not allow siddent, not in iran, not elsewhere.

Sounds like you just can't accept good about your nation when republicans are in charge, no matter the evidence.

You made a weak, obfuscatory argument, one so vague that you can deny having said anything you did, because you didn't actually say anything - other than that, somehow, Bush and the Republicans sure are such bad guys...again. As i wrote before, even the Arab press has pretty much dropped the war for oil claims. time for the homegrown conspiracists to move on too, and find another batch of rationalizations for their hate-on for Bush and conservatives. Warning: History will judge you badly for that, while it judges Bush very positively in light of his freeing 50 million Muslims from tryanny, and having ignited a democratic revolution throughout the islamic world that brought prosperity, rights, political moderation and peace.

There is no evidence or sound reasoning that will convince you. I see in you an emotional conviction that Bush and anything a Republican government would do as bad.If a President Dore had precisely followed Bush's policies with respect to islamism, you'd be cheering as loudly as anyone. So would conservatives. But because it was Bush, the conservatives stand alone.

Yes, there is a great deal more published and broadcast information on democracy now in the Arab world. In fact, a large group of Islamic intellectuals published what was a shocking paper on the mess of their region and the need of democracy. A number of Arab nations have liberalized a bit since the war, and others are now speaking more about it - led by intellectuals. Rice's speech in cairo was presented by the media, with most of its criticisms left unedited, and its call for democracy only somewhat edited. Such would not have been the case not long ago, when nothing of it would have been published. As for iran, what you believe to have been a reform movement was nothing more than an illusion, as tehari as repeatedly written. A reformer in government or running fopr office was someone pre-approved by the mullahs to run for office (after they rejected all the true reformers, or simply imprisoned or killed them). Such reformers accepted as a given an Islamic theocracy. They merely requested a bit more freedom and a somewhat less antagonistic foreign policy approach - because they considered that a better means of accomplishubf foreign policy aims: Like getting nuclear weapons to foment further islamist revoltuion without earning international approbation. That is why iranians largely ignored the last two elections. That is, they saw the illusion for what it is. tehari reported that many who showed up to vote did so becasue they were coerced, but left blank ballots behind rather than play along with the game.

You are immune to reason, frankly, on this matter. You claim I've provided none, which is nothing other than claim itself.Of course no one can provide you with ironclad proof that Iraq has deterred terrorist attacks on the US. But surely you realize that bin laden (and any other Islamist terrorist oprganzaitions) was bound and determined to enact many more than just 9/11. That he has not obviously indicates that either he realized that was unwise (i.e. he didn't want to unify Americans against the war - bring people like yourself onside with others - nor incite the US into another invasion and to create yet another democracy in the ME) or has been unable to carry them off. (Not that sooner or later there won't be more.)That the Islamists have poured so many Jihadis into iraq, obviously means that those same people are unable to fight elsewhere. That they are spending so much money on weapons and support for these Jihadis in Iraq, obviously means that that money cannot be spent elsewhere. That is not rocket science. And, given that the US has staunched much of the money flow they previously had, obviously that means this expenditure in Iraq weakens them with respect to operations elsewhere. It's elementary arithmetic.That is not to say that they cannot carry out any operations elsewhere. They can, as evidenced in spain and GB. But given their desires, so few attacks indicates their limitations.

The islamists flat out tell you that they intend to takeover the world for islam. That is not my conspiracy story, but theirs. have you not read anything at all that they've written adn issued and broadcast? That theme is their obsession; it is all they talk about. And well they should, but that is precisely what the war verses demand.As for: "And what motivated the invasion of Iraq was that Hussein was in the way of the US plans to exert control over international petroleum production." Yes, that's what you said, and that is what i replied to. what evidence have you that the US has gained control over international production? The US did not want oprices to rise. had they control, they wouldn't have allowed it to happen. The US has given total control over Iraqoi oil to Iraqis. Again, even the Arab press has let such talk slide. But that you subscribe to such a conspiracy shows you are immune to reason, and overwhelmed with cynicism that prevents you from seeing your president and his admin rationally.Again, I say, had this been Gore, you'd be cheering.

neiter of us has anything more to say on this. Time to let it go.

Bush is totally wrong on deficit spending.Othewise, neither of us will haev anything new to add to this discussion. Time to let it go.