Far left - US/UK definition

Saskatchewan decreased poverty.(Admittedly, not exactly a "nation". )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

quote:

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My point is that we (in Canada) don't use left/right labels as "organizing principles".

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Nor was my point that anyone uses labels as "organizing principles". What I was hoping for in this thread was a discussion of what are the organizing principles that people label "left" and "right".

Hmm. Not sure I see the difference.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

*shrug*

If you mean that capitalism makes "almost everyone better" economically, you may wish to consider the facts that each year from 1989 to 2001 there was a fall of approximately 8% in Russia’s productive assets; The increase from 1990 to 1999 in the percentage of people living on less than $1 a day was greater in the former communist countries (3.7%) than anywhere else in the world; GDP growth between 1990 and 2001 was negative or close to negative in every country except Poland in the postcommunist region with Russia (-3.7), Georgia (-5.6), Ukraine (-7.9), Moldova (-8.4) and Tajikistan (-8.5) faring the worst; The number of people living in ‘poverty’ in the former Soviet Republics rose from 14 million in 1989 to 147 million even prior to the crash of the rouble in 1998; since the collapse of communism there has been a doubling of the number of young people in low-income households across eastern europe; Between 1993 and 1995, 20,000 out of 27,000 Russian state enterprises were privatized, but the Government sold them for about 10% per cent of their true value.If you mean that capitalism makes "almost everybody better" politically, it is worth bearing in mind that of the 20 current presidents of Eastern European nations (excluding the former Yugoslavia) and countries which used to be part of the Soviet Union, 11 are former party insiders (called nomenklatura) (in other words, capitalism and democracy aren't interchangeable!).If you mean that capitalism makes "almost everybody better" in terms of their personal health, you might take note that there has been since the collapse of communism a doubling of the suicide rate in men aged 15 to 24 (data from Russia, Belarus and Lithuania); and that life expectancy declined by 5 or 6 six years for men and 2 or 3 years for women in the decade after communism collapsed.All data from NEW INTERNATIONALIST magazine, 2004.Now, some people here might say that the new Internationalist is a hardline leftwing radical communist-anarchist fundamentalist organization. But they did indeed base their figures on data in the public domain, often gathered by the UN etc.Let's take a look at an organization of impeccable bourgeois credentials, the Assembly of the Council of Europe. According to thier working paper The situation of women in the countries of post-communism transition dated only LAST YEAR: Yeah, capitalism is good for you! mickThis message has been edited by mick, 07-23-2005 08:51 PM

cuba????

Interesting that you should mention Cuba.A few years ago, Michael Moore had a TV show which aired in Canada. He did a number of silly things, such as playing frisbee with Dr. Kevorkian. He also did a segment on comparing the health care systems of the US, Canada and Cuba.His conclusions (for what they're worth) were something like:The US has the best quality care - for those who can pay for it.Canada has health care of almost the same quality, and the basics are available to everybody, free of charge.Cuba has shortages of equipment, supplies, etc. - so that the quality of health care suffers somewhat - but everything is free, for everybody.Now, we all know that Michael Moore is a leftist commie pinko who couldn't tell the truth if you strapped him to a truth-telling machine, but he made a case that the US has a third-rate system.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

what I said is true. As for saskatchewan, you had a corrupt Conservative Party, that carried out NDP economics, and an NDP that disagreed with the federal NDP on economic matters, being far more conservative than they.

saskathchewan is a small provincial government, whose experience was in the context of a national government moving away from socialism towards a balanced budget for the first time in a generation. moreover, Saskatchewan's NDP was far more conservative than had been their "Conservative" predecessors.

Russia became an oligopoly, not anywhere close to true capitalism.On the other hand, former Communist states that truly moved towards democracy and capitalism have seen living standards rise. A period of correction, however was and is needed when a nation moves from heavily subsidized Communism with its false and artificial economic indicators, to an honest capitalistic one.

Hi ringo,As a person currently resident in Canada, i can confirm that Michael Moore's love of Canada is a subject of much ironic debate. Very much a pink spectacles situation.I can't speak for Cuba, as I've never lived there, but I know for a fact that they are pretty generous with their medical expertise, both within the country and outside it. for example when the UK got hit by foot and mouth disease a couple of years ago, Cuba offered a dozen or so veterinarians who were experienced with the disease to work for free to help the UK farmers. Unfortunately the Cuban contingent were rejected by the immigration authority. The funny thing is, the cuban vets were experienced with f&m because the US government had purposefully infected Cuba with the disease in the 60s. what goes around comes around I guess.Mick

OK, I'll try again. Sadly, many leftwing Jews ARE anti-Israel, true to their leftist ideology against their own best interests, seeming not to grasp that the Left has turned on them as it has turned on Israel. Yes, historically the Jews have always been predominantly leftist, including far left to Marxist and Communist, and still are. Only the Jewish Neo-Cons seem to have wised up. The tide has turned just in the last decade or so and now the left is virulently anti-Israel and at times outright anti-semitic and I hope more and more Jews are beginning to wake up to this reality. Sure it's a fact but a fact up to its eyeballs in leftist spin. It's a classic leftwing statement. It's even Marxist in its basic implication that military might means a nation by definition is the Oppressor while poverty and weakness define a people as the Oppressed. In actual fact Israel is on the defensive against terrorist attacks and the Arab world's intention to rid the Middle East of their very existence. Leftist spin reverses the guilt. If it weren't for the irrational hostility of the Arab world to Israel, the Palestinians could have had a state a long time ago, and be at peace with Israel, as Israel has no aggressive intentions whatever. Their actions are strictly retaliatory, against terrorists and their support system and their arsenals, in defense of their citizens who are the innocent victims of Palestinian murders. To call Israel's actions terrorism is leftist spin. It's a lie. Their actions are strictly focused and retaliatory and in fact as carefully as possible aimed to avoid civilian casualties, a fact for which the Left will give them no credit. Terrorism is the absolutely unjustifiable unconscionable slaughter of innocent people for no purpose whatever. It accomplishes nothing but the purpose of terrorizing people. If it had a purpose like peace or establishing a Palestinian state, that could be accomplished just about immediately by STOPPING the bombings, instead of encouraging them as the Palestinian leaders and the jihadists all over the Middle East do. The Left reverses the guilt and the innocence, the good and the evil in the situation. Likening Fox's popularity to Hitler's popularity, and thereby smearing all Americans who appreciate Fox, and linking it all to the Bush administration, is pure leftist propaganda intended only to vilify and discredit their political opponents. Multiculturalism, the ideological refusal to make distinctions between cultures and religions is a major tenet of the left, especially with the one exception of demoting Christianity and treating it as the only evil religion. In this case Turner deviates a bit from the party line by including Islam in his denunciation, as Islam seems to have gained in popularity with the Left ever since the terror attack on the WTC. Hatred of America is a leftist position same as hatred of Christianity. There ARE some vague ideological ties here to a vulgar Marxist version of the idea of Oppressor and Oppressed. Any nation that is rich and successful is by definition the oppressor and only to be hated and destroyed so that the "proletariat" may become the oppressor. Nothing at all leftwing about financing one's political agenda, what's leftwing is the agenda itself.

The Guardian supports socialist economics, believes in pacifism, believes in affirmative action, believes in moral equivalence and relativism, does not see that democracy needs to defend itself against aggressors, and so on.

LOL, yep, a period of correction when all of those artificial subsidized situations like universal health care and women's rights are got rid of!Mickadded in edit:Am I right to find it chilling that a 1000% rise in the number of people living in poverty over one decade is considered by right wingers such as yourself to be "a period of correction"? What the fuck is being "corrected" in this glorious period of history? Is it human beings with their crazy communist expectations of a decent life who are being "corrected"?This message has been edited by mick, 07-23-2005 09:09 PMThis message has been edited by mick, 07-23-2005 09:11 PM

I see that those on the left and right generally ascribe cliches about the other, and tend to see those on the fringe as representative of the whole movement. Thus, conservatives describe the left as being Marxist, and leftists describe conservatives as being heartless racists.In my general description of left and right I avoided that kind of button holing, preferring a more balanced and accurate reading of each.