Far left - US/UK definition

LOL!Yep that's right folks, the readers of The Grauniad are a bunch of Far Left subversives. Pretty soon the government of Great Britain will be overthrown and compulsory sandal wearing and Volvo driving will be enforced.In an attempt to post something that could be construed as constructive: On a simple level (the only level I work at ), I've always viewed the comparison of Left vs Right as how involved the government is allowed to get in people's lives. The 'Left' tend to view the loss of freedoms (and some of their hard earned cash) as not as important as the benefits to society as a whole, whereas those on the 'Right' wish to have more say as individuals.It's a sliding scale, and it seems to me (as a Brit) that in the US, the slider for the general public is set more to the 'Right', whereas in Europe the bias in the other direction. This is why a newspaper that I would class as 'Slightly left of centre' can be seen as dangerously 'Leftist' (whatever the Hell that means). It rubs the other way of course: many in the UK view general politics in the States to be worryingly Right-wing.Mind you, I can't quite see what's so left-wing about the Beeb! My position:People are Bastards. Give 'em more money and they'll spend it on a new car. Take it as tax and you can use it to build a National Health Service, provide decent international aid and provide a good quality, free education system for everyone.Just my twopennethThis message has been edited by Ooook!, 23-07-2005 10:18 AMThis message has been edited by Ooook!, 23-07-2005 10:19 AM

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Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

OK Faith, My initial comments were meant simply to convey my opinions and to try and stimulate debate from people who may feel otherwise. I deliberately didn't go into specific detail because I feared that would drag the debate away from the central issue (perception of Left/Right in the US and the UK). As you seem to have bitten, I'll go into a bit more detail . Well, first things first, it's not just my opinion. Ask anyone on the street in Britain with half an ounce of interest in current affairs how they would class The Guardian politically and they will say 'left-of-centre' or similar. Guardian readers have a reputation as middle-class moderates (see the Volvo/Sandal comment in my first post), and it has the rather affectionate nickname ('The Grauniad') because of a previous propensity for spelling mistakes. Likewise most people will class the BBC as non-partisan.If you want an example of what most people in Britain would class as 'Left-Wing' try the The Socialist Worker. Of course you'll have to take my word for this; I'm not about to conduct a round of street surveys.Secondly, my opinion in this instance does count for something. I would class myself as left of centre politically in Britain, and I'll be very surprised to find anyone that has ever met me thinking that I'm some kind of dangerous revolutionary loony. Why then do I find myself agreeing with a lot of the editorials and commentaries in The Guardian, if it is a Far-Left rag?The perceptions of left/right are obviously skewed somehow. As I said, I believe that this is because the balance between 'Left' and 'Right' is different in the States. Of course my 'sliding scale' example is a massive over-simplification - I admitted that much myself - but I think that it does have some mileage (especially as a debating tool). Let me give you a few examples, one of which is taken from No webpage found at provided URL: The Guardian unlimited: The National Health ServiceHere's a prime example of how things are obviously polarised. There is obviously a debate about the NHS in British politics over how much weight should be taken up by the private sector and how much by the state, but if any politician messes around with the principle that the care should be free at the point of treatment they are in trouble. Contrast this with US politics, where commitment to the same type of investment would be political suicide. Some people can't afford adequate healthcare - screw 'em!The same argument can be put forward for education and transport, and I see the same difference in emphasis between the countries.Religious Freedom:Although this doesn't at first glance appear to be a personal freedom vs state, I would argue that it is another good example of the contrast. Many of those involved in mainstream politics in the US have the view that because they are in the majority, then they should have the freedom to do whatever they please when it comes down to religion. The centre ground in Britain is held by people who accept that certain aspects of religion have to be curbed in order for society as a whole to be fair.I hold that despite the constitutional separation of church and state, religion (specifically Christianity) plays a much bigger part in politics in the USA than it does in Europe.Gun OwnershipI've touched on this in another thread, and I know that at least one person will disagree with me, but in my mind this is a classic Right/Left issue. The right of one individual to own a gun is compared to the right of another not to be shot by some nutter who just lost his job and owned the gun legally!!!. The Right-wing in the US are the most fervent supporters of semi-automatic 'hunting rifles', it is a non issue in the UK. So, to summarise:My sliding scale idea is a gross generalisation. It doesn't fully take into account that many people have a variety of opinions on a variety of subjects. It glosses over the complexity of the economy and society. It is, by and large, just my opinion.What it does do is give you an impression of where I stand on issues and how I percieve Right vs Left. It also gives you a summary of the where I think the balance between Right and Left is struck in the US and the UK.My choice of paper is The Independent, and I would also class it as centre/centre-left. An example of a what I (and many others) would call a Right-of-Centre paper is the Daily Telegraph.What about you? How would you describe these examples? How do you define the Left/Right divide?

Hang on a minute Faith, I'll not say too much, as you might be composing a reply to my other message as I type, but let's not get too carried away with the back-slapping shall we? The post you replied to was immediately followed by one by CS trying to debate a specific claim. He's not entirely innocent on the generalisation and scaremongering either: And while I believe that you are trying to stimulate debate on the subject (and I hope that you will be willing to continue once witching hour arrives), your posts aren't exactly perfect examples of objectivity and free of stereotypes: There are two main problems I see with the kind of discussion that you are tring to propagate (apart from the obvious risk of topic drift):

1. Politics is a deeply subjective topic. It's pretty tricky not to let your own political opinion colour statements when defining 'Left' and 'Right'. I will openly admit that my posts are not free of little digs at what I perceive as 'Right-wing'.
2. As I have been trying to get at, Left vs Right is relative and varied. People might think of themselves as socially liberal and yet economically conservative, for example. In addition, it is very hard to define people's views with convenient labels such 'Leftist' and get any real meaning from them. Conversely, it is very easy to label people without really tackling what makes them take up such views.

I'll leave it there for now.

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Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinis alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

Steve,I think if I went down the list and stated my perception of Left/Right with all of them I might be here a while. For starters, many of them seem to be either Strawmen errected by people with views such as yourself to riddicule what you see as 'Bleeding Heart' liberals: or complex questions requiring complicated answers: As an alternative exercise why don't you , by using my definition of left and right, briefly set out what you think my opinion on the top three is (multiculturalism, moral relativity, moral equivilence) and explain where you think the main points of debate are.To start you off here is my opinion (again I think I'd qualify as left-of-centre) on Multiculturalism: What do you think I view as a 'right-wing' view, and how does this fit with my position that Right=Indidual Left=Society as a whole? But I thought that was the whole point of the thread. Why do some people view things as relatively central, whereas others condemn them as 'Leftist'?

In that case I'll save my comments on why I am not missing the point until then