Far left - US/UK definition

In other words, Marriage Rights.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Leftist ideas show up in the most surprising places. Being a Republican doesn't make you exempt. Cultural Marxism even affects the social views of some Republicans. Certainly being a Christian doesn't make you exempt. The National Council of Churches is about as leftist as you can get short of the Communist Party.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-24-2005 03:06 PM

not inside someone's body, and under a certain age we can't.

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אָרַח

In your opinion. But just as with your interpretation of what makes a Christian, left is but an assertion.That's fine.Left/Right, Liberal/Conservative are opinions, not fact.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

OK Faith, My initial comments were meant simply to convey my opinions and to try and stimulate debate from people who may feel otherwise. I deliberately didn't go into specific detail because I feared that would drag the debate away from the central issue (perception of Left/Right in the US and the UK). As you seem to have bitten, I'll go into a bit more detail . Well, first things first, it's not just my opinion. Ask anyone on the street in Britain with half an ounce of interest in current affairs how they would class The Guardian politically and they will say 'left-of-centre' or similar. Guardian readers have a reputation as middle-class moderates (see the Volvo/Sandal comment in my first post), and it has the rather affectionate nickname ('The Grauniad') because of a previous propensity for spelling mistakes. Likewise most people will class the BBC as non-partisan.If you want an example of what most people in Britain would class as 'Left-Wing' try the The Socialist Worker. Of course you'll have to take my word for this; I'm not about to conduct a round of street surveys.Secondly, my opinion in this instance does count for something. I would class myself as left of centre politically in Britain, and I'll be very surprised to find anyone that has ever met me thinking that I'm some kind of dangerous revolutionary loony. Why then do I find myself agreeing with a lot of the editorials and commentaries in The Guardian, if it is a Far-Left rag?The perceptions of left/right are obviously skewed somehow. As I said, I believe that this is because the balance between 'Left' and 'Right' is different in the States. Of course my 'sliding scale' example is a massive over-simplification - I admitted that much myself - but I think that it does have some mileage (especially as a debating tool). Let me give you a few examples, one of which is taken from No webpage found at provided URL: The Guardian unlimited: The National Health ServiceHere's a prime example of how things are obviously polarised. There is obviously a debate about the NHS in British politics over how much weight should be taken up by the private sector and how much by the state, but if any politician messes around with the principle that the care should be free at the point of treatment they are in trouble. Contrast this with US politics, where commitment to the same type of investment would be political suicide. Some people can't afford adequate healthcare - screw 'em!The same argument can be put forward for education and transport, and I see the same difference in emphasis between the countries.Religious Freedom:Although this doesn't at first glance appear to be a personal freedom vs state, I would argue that it is another good example of the contrast. Many of those involved in mainstream politics in the US have the view that because they are in the majority, then they should have the freedom to do whatever they please when it comes down to religion. The centre ground in Britain is held by people who accept that certain aspects of religion have to be curbed in order for society as a whole to be fair.I hold that despite the constitutional separation of church and state, religion (specifically Christianity) plays a much bigger part in politics in the USA than it does in Europe.Gun OwnershipI've touched on this in another thread, and I know that at least one person will disagree with me, but in my mind this is a classic Right/Left issue. The right of one individual to own a gun is compared to the right of another not to be shot by some nutter who just lost his job and owned the gun legally!!!. The Right-wing in the US are the most fervent supporters of semi-automatic 'hunting rifles', it is a non issue in the UK. So, to summarise:My sliding scale idea is a gross generalisation. It doesn't fully take into account that many people have a variety of opinions on a variety of subjects. It glosses over the complexity of the economy and society. It is, by and large, just my opinion.What it does do is give you an impression of where I stand on issues and how I percieve Right vs Left. It also gives you a summary of the where I think the balance between Right and Left is struck in the US and the UK.My choice of paper is The Independent, and I would also class it as centre/centre-left. An example of a what I (and many others) would call a Right-of-Centre paper is the Daily Telegraph.What about you? How would you describe these examples? How do you define the Left/Right divide?

To add to this -

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Religious Freedom:

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Although this doesn't at first glance appear to be a personal freedom vs state, I would argue that it is another good example of the contrast. Many of those involved in mainstream politics in the US have the view that because they are in the majority, then they should have the freedom to do whatever they please when it comes down to religion. The centre ground in Britain is held by people who accept that certain aspects of religion have to be curbed in order for society as a whole to be fair.

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I hold that despite the constitutional separation of church and state, religion (specifically Christianity) plays a much bigger part in politics in the USA than it does in Europe.

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Ironically for a country that has no bars on religion in public life our views on it's place in that environment are very different from the states. While in theory our leaders could make great play out of being god-fearing christians, it would go down very very badly with the british public. The (and please fellow brits correct me if I'm wrong) overwhelming feeling here is that relgion belief is a matter for the home not to bother other people with. If you believe in Allah or God or Zeus, that is your business but keep it to yourself,eh?

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Gun Ownership

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I've touched on this in another thread, and I know that at least one person will disagree with me, but in my mind this is a classic Right/Left issue. The right of one individual to own a gun is compared to the right of another not to be shot by some nutter who just lost his job and owned the gun legally!!!. The Right-wing in the US are the most fervent supporters of semi-automatic 'hunting rifles', it is a non issue in the UK.

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I would agree - there are a very very small amount of people on the right who would disagree with the current policy on firearms, this group is too small to count. This is a total non-issue here, we don't like guns, we don't want guns. This is in no small part to our perception*of the warped effect it seems to have had on american culture.* note i say perception - I'm not really interested in arguing the reality with anyone because it makes no jote of different to the current view of the UK public.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 24-Jul-2005 06:51 PM

It seems to me that we're talking about very specific things, like iraq or abortion, and sometimes the scaremongering of the left and right of one another, but not about the real point of this thread: The general, and sincere, philosophical divide between the right and the left.

I'd really rather not get into the interminable abortion debate. It is but one very small part of the great divide between left and right. But, very quickly, here's the legal counterargument in brief, from an organization that argues neither in favour of nor in opportion to abortion:"Roe V. WadeFrom the beginning of the Republic abortion law was left entirely to the legislatures. That the Constitution should suddenly change in 1973 is rather implausible. The Court wrote a 51 page opinion to explain this change, but they forgot to include any legitimate legal arguments for their decision. They included many pages of moral and historical reasons, but few legal ones.The Court decided the argument with these words: "This right of privacy, whether it is founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the district Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." They were not even sure where they found the right.This is not a legal argument. It is a Court order.Justice Rehnquist's dissent says it well: "I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and legislatures of 50 States are constitutionally disentitled"The right to choose should be returned to the people and their legislatures. Until this happens judicial neutrality will remain a fleeting dream."VW Klassische Teile

these arguments are endless, so i'll call this one quits. But you sure don't sound like a Republican. In what ways are you a conservative and not a leftist?

there is a distinction between an american conservative and other conservatives. Gun control is an excellent example of this. American conservatives oppose it, but most others, myself too as a canadian conservative, support it. There is also, in Canada, at least, a divide on gun control between urban and rural conservatives, the former more in support, the latter less so. Abortion is also a point of difference. American conservatives oppose it, usually totally. Other nations' conservatives accept it, with reticence and restrictions.

By definition, states can't have the power to violate the rights of the people. The 14th Amendment simply makes that obvious principle explicit.In regards to "states rights", sorry, but the "accountability moment" for that concept has passed. Perhaps you heard of it? It was called "the Civil War." Your side lost.

What do you see as the overall position of left vs right (and don't mistake the American right with the right of everyone else) on issues like:* multiculturalism
* moral relativity
* moral equivalence
* the west as a civilization vs other, especially non democratic, civilizations
* do citizens of non democratic nations/civilizations choose to be non democratic and we're wrong to force it on them; or is that they are voiceless under authoritarian rule and only deserve a chance to accept (or reject) democracy?
* affirmative action
* the west being racist
* whether democracy is under attack
* the motivation of the islamists in general, and, specifically, for their attack on London
* Israel and the palestinians

I may not sound to you like a conservative, but that means very little.Ask Schraf and you'll find she sees me as somewhat to the right of Fascism on many issues such as Gun Control. She found it amazing that when she asked if an idividual should have a right to own a grenade launcher that not only do I favor that right, I own one. I may not sound like a Republican but in fact, most of the Republicans today don't sound much like republicans either. They sound far more like World Order Fascists.I favor individual liberty and oppose legislation that removes and restricts individual liberty such as the Defence of Marriage Act, opposition to Roe v Wade and our current Anti-Terrorism Laws; and oppose total waste and stupidity such as the invasion of Iraq that simply wastes money and does nothing to secure the US.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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She found it amazing that when she asked if an idividual should have a right to own a grenade launcher that not only do I favor that right, I own one.

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Just to show how one should be careful as to what labels mean, I'm someone on the left who doesn't have much use for gun control.

Would you describe yourself as a Libertarian?