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Author Topic:   Where are all the missing links?
Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6643 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 121 of 302 (233642)
08-16-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rahvin
08-15-2005 7:40 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
You have demonstrated nothing and teaching a dumb ape to stack blocks has absolutely nothing to do with my question. You have not and cannot point to an animal that demonstrates self awareness, knowledge of death, conceptual thought and significant invention of language and linguistic talent. Me eat you give orange eat me orange me you give ... Very impressive.
I rather suspect people who encourgage their women staff members to show their breasts to a gorilla to promote bonding have more screws loose than is typical, even among evolutionists who apparently believe in anything from flying saucers to linquisticly capable parrots.
"Other scientists dismiss such conclusions, contending she does not understand the meaning behind what she is doing, but learns to complete the signs simply because the researchers reward her for doing so, representing her actions as a result of operant conditioning. Such debate requires careful consideration of what it means to 'learn' or 'use' a language.
To gain a rudimentary understanding you might start here.
Operant conditioning, sometimes called instrumental conditioning or instrumental learning, was first extensively studied by Edward L. Thorndike (1874-1949).
Further from Columbia U I believe with Nim Chimpsky
However, the results were not as impressive as had been reported from the Washoe project, and from another project with the gorilla Koko. While Nim did learn 125 signs, the study concluded that he hadn't acquired anything the researchers were prepared to designate worthy of the name "language" although he had learned to repeat his trainers' signs in appropriate contexts. Nim's longest recorded utterance was "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." Terrace and his colleagues concluded that the chimpanzee did not show any meaningful sequential behavior that rivaled human grammar, and indeed that there was nothing that Nim could be taught that could not equally well be taught to a pigeon using the principles of operant conditioning. They were therefore led to question the claims that had been made on behalf of Washoe, and to argue that the apparently impressive results may have resulted from a relatively informal experimental approach.
I taught my dog to sit with a stack of oreos... does that mean she knows where sugar comes from.. Rediculous.
Get it.. you have done nothing to demonstrate anything credible.. show me the papers and evidence on the accepted theory of how consciousness arises from the molecular arrangement of carbon based chemistry alone ... let's see the documentation.
Oh and about that wacko who spent 20 years watching gorillas have sex... well lets just move on shall we.
Evolutionists are a source of comedic entertainment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rahvin, posted 08-15-2005 7:40 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 11:35 AM Evopeach has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 302 (233644)
08-16-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 10:12 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
Totally OT comment removed.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-16-2005 09:34 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 10:12 AM Evopeach has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 123 of 302 (233649)
08-16-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by randman
08-16-2005 12:20 AM


The Continuity of Species Transition
Hi Randman,
I know you haven't had a chance to respond to Message 111 yet, but I thought it would be helpful to add a little bit about how one species transitions in continuous fashion into another. I'll just focus on sexual species.
Every reproductive act is a tiny evolutionary step. We are all different from our parents, who are different from our grandparents, who are different from our great grandparents, and so forth. The genetic code of babies is never identical to either parent. Each new human being is a unique individual genetically (ignoring the special case of identical twins, of course).
This tiny change comes from two sources. One is unique allele combinations. An allele is one type of a gene. To explain this a little better, let's say there's an organism whose eye color is determined by a single gene. The different eye colors are the alleles of the gene. There would be a gene allele for blue, another for brown, another for green, and so forth. Each parent contributes an allele for eye color. If both alleles are the same then the organism's eye color will be whichever allele that is. If the two alleles are different then the dominant allele determines eye color. For example, in humans brown is generally dominant over blue, and so when one parent contributes a brown allele and the other contributes a blue, the child's eye color will be brown (I think eye color in humans is determined by more than one gene, and so it may not be as simple as I'm protraying here, but I'm only trying to get the principle across).
To continue with humans as an example, since humans have somewhere around 30,000 genes, if we assumed that each gene had only two alleles then the number of possible allele combinations is around 109000. Since only around 1010 humans have ever lived, there's only one chance in 10900 of an allele combination appearing that is not unique. 10900 is a very large number. It's a 1 with 900 zeros after it. Or you could say that it's a billion billion billion billion billion...(keep this up until you've said billion 100 times). The likelihood that each newborn baby is genetically unique is extremely close to 1. In other words, the probability of any allele combination occuring more than once is very small, and keep in mind that many genes have more than one allele, which increases the odds of uniqueness even more. The odds are reduced somewhat because some allele combinations are hostile to fetus viability, and the baby is never born, often shed so early that the women is never even aware an egg was fertilized.
But I mentioned another factor that contributes to the tiny change associated with each reproductive event, and that's mutation. Mutations are caused by imperfect copying of the genetic material, DNA. The estimates I've seen say that on average around 10 mutations occur in the DNA of every new human being. This raises even further the likelihood that each newborn individual will be genetically unique. Most mutations are tiny, only a single base pair missing or out of order or replaced by the wrong base pair or matched up with the wrong base. But some mutations can be larger, such as a gene being inverted or moved to a different part of the chromosome or even to a different chromosome. There can even be extra or missing chromosomes. The more significant the mutation, the more likely it is to be fatal.
So we've established that every reproductive act creates a unique individual both in terms of allele combinations, and due to the addition of some usually harmless mutations. So if each child is different from the parents, and if this is true of the child's eventual children, and their children, and their children after them, and so on into the distant future, then it can be seen that change can only accumulate. There are forces acting to harness this change, but I'll discuss those later.
As this change accumulates, at which point does one species become another? That turns out to be a difficult question to answer, and is probably best explained using the example of ring species.
The most famous example of a ring species is the herring gull. You can find information about it from all over the Internet, but here's a short excerpt from this one: Ring Species.
There are several ring species, but the most famous example is the herring gull. In Britain, these are white. They breed with the herring gulls of eastern America, which are also white. American herring gulls breed with those of Alaska, and Alaskan ones breed with those of Siberia. But as you go to Alaska and Siberia, you find that herring gulls are getting smaller, and picking up some black markings. And when you get all the way back to Britain, they have become Lesser Black-Backed Gulls.
So, the situation is that there is a big circle around the world. As you travel this circle, you find a series of gull populations, each of which interbreeds with the populations to each side. But in Britain, the two ends of the circle are two different species of bird. The two ends do not interbreed: they think that they are two different species.
(If you delve more deeply into herring gulls you'll find it isn't quite this simple or neat, but there's no need introduce extraneous details for this discussion.)
The point of introducing ring species is to help explain that the more genetically similar two species are, the more likely they are to be able to interbreed. There is no miraculous sudden cut-off point. Consider two fairly similar populations of the same species that are gradually drifting apart genetically. It isn't like one year they can interbreed and the next year they can't. What actually happens is that as they become more and more genetically different, fewer and fewer individuals of those populations are able to interbreed, until eventually it is so few that they should be considered different species.
So with the herring gull you can ask the question, at which point as you circle the world from Britain to eastern America to Alaska to Siberia and back to Britain does the herring gull become a different species than the Lesser Black-Backed gull. There's no unamibiguous answer to this question. When two populations interbreed then it is said that there is a gene flow between them, and As Don Linday accurately says in the link I provided, "Two species are the same if there is 'significant' gene flow between them. But there is no sharp dividing line between 'significant' and 'insignificant'."
I earlier mentioned that there are forces that harness or rein in the degree of change in a species. One is natural selection. For a well-adapted species in a stable habitat, any significant change may be maladaptive, and such individuals are less likely to survive to reproduce, or are less likely to produce as many offspring as the average.
Another force harnessing in change is the size of the population. This has been mentioned more than several times by more than one person here. A species with a large population (human beings come to mind again) will have a large range and hence experience a variety of environmental conditions. At the extremes of the range the evolutionary forces for change are greatest, but genetic change from these regions all flow into the large central population and are diluted.
It also takes much longer for change to propagate through a large population. Take a population of animals with a very broad range, perhaps the bison of the American plains, but before, say, 1800, which would predate when the herds began to be decimated. An individual with a beneficial mutation or allele combination that lived at one end of the range would produce offspring who possessed this genetic trait, and the question concerns how far those offspring might travel during their reproductive lifetimes. How far that range is governs how fast the trait can spread through the population. Reproductive rates are also a significant consideration. Creatures that stay relatively close to home during their lifetime and which do not reproduce frequently can spread their traits throughout the population's range only very slowly. Those who have the opposite qualities, those who range far and reproduce often, can spread their traits quickly through a very broad range.
I've hope I've shown that evolutionary change is continuous, and that the division of populations into distinct species is not an unambiguous task. I hope I've additionally shown that genetic changes can propagate much more quickly throughout a small population than a large.
--Percy
This message has been edited by Percy, 08-19-2005 09:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 124 of 302 (233651)
08-16-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 10:12 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
This portion of the dialog in this thread is starting to drift off topic. Please, no replies.
"Other scientists dismiss such conclusions, contending she does not understand the meaning behind what she is doing, but learns to complete the signs simply because the researchers reward her for doing so, representing her actions as a result of operant conditioning. Such debate requires careful consideration of what it means to 'learn' or 'use' a language.
I contend that you do not understand the meaning behind what you are saying, that you're merely aping language (and the arguments of creationists) as a result of operant conditioning.
You'll have to prove to us that you're actually a conscious entity if apparently, it doesn't take consciousness to use language.
Get it.. you have done nothing to demonstrate anything credible.. show me the papers and evidence on the accepted theory of how consciousness arises from the molecular arrangement of carbon based chemistry alone ... let's see the documentation.
You'll have to prove that you have consciousness, first. Oh, and define it, while you're at it.
This message has been edited by Admin, 08-16-2005 11:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 10:12 AM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 125 of 302 (233654)
08-16-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 10:12 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
Hi Evopeach,
I thought your quotes about other scientists rejecting the view that there was something cognitively similar to humans regarding grammatical speech going on in gorillas and chimpanzee minds were pretty good rebuttal, but the to me the true issue isn't the degree to which other apes approach human cognitive skills, but whether there seems to be a transition among extant ape species from lesser to greater cognitive skills as they become genetically closer to humans. It seems that way to me. Doesn't it to you?
Evopeach writes:
Get it.. you have done nothing to demonstrate anything credible.. show me the papers and evidence on the accepted theory of how consciousness arises from the molecular arrangement of carbon based chemistry alone ... let's see the documentation.
The above appears to be off topic for a thread about missing links.
One question that comes up on the issue of transitionals is at what level of fineness does a transition become simply a variation. To use an musical analogy, say you're seeking the transitional notes between middle C and the C one octave above. You find F, and then someone asks are there any notes intermediate between middle C and F. So you find D and someone asks if there are notes intermediate between middle C and D. So you find C#, and someone asks if you can find notes intermediate between middle C and C#. And you reply that there are no notes between middle C and C#. You explain that as the frequency of middle C is increased it gradually just becomes a more and more off-tune C or a less and less off-tune C#.
But of course this is just an artifact of the way we hear and of our western music. There *are* musical cultures which use quarter tones (e.g., halfway between C and C#). There's nothing sacred about our division of frequencies into notes.
So the question is, when is a transition filled with enough intermediates to no longer require additional transitionals? How do we tell when we're done?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 10:12 AM Evopeach has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13042
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 126 of 302 (233656)
08-16-2005 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by crashfrog
08-16-2005 10:57 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
I think Evopeach was already a bit off-topic, and this post probably takes it even further off course.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by crashfrog, posted 08-16-2005 10:57 AM crashfrog has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 127 of 302 (233660)
08-16-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 10:12 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
Alright, I'll admit that Koko is disputable as far as actually posessing consciousness - but it really depends on how you define sentience in the first place. In any case, Admin has deemed animal sentience to be off-topic.
You paid absolutely no attention to the examples I gave for the evolution of the human brain. It is absolutely apparent that the human brain is a slightly altered version of exactly the same organ in various other species, and those closest to us on the evolutionary tree (like neandertals, etc) have the most striking similarities.
Get it.. you have done nothing to demonstrate anything credible.. show me the papers and evidence on the accepted theory of how consciousness arises from the molecular arrangement of carbon based chemistry alone ... let's see the documentation.
This is outside the scope of evoulution. We don't (to my knowledge) understand exactly what causes sentience. If you'd like to discuss this, I suggest you visit a neurology or psychology forum. The part relevant to evolution, that is the similarity of structure and function demonstrating common ancestry, has been proven. You haven't refuted it. I'm waiting for you to try.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 10:12 AM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Rahvin has replied

Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6643 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 128 of 302 (233670)
08-16-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Rahvin
08-16-2005 11:35 AM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
In an attempt to not get into trouble I will say that there are zero transitional forms dead or alive that can substantioate the claim that the human brain is jst a few minor genetic muations away from an extant speciaes brain... the gap in cognitive ability, understanding, language skillls, writing skills, self awarenenss and planning for the future we forecast is enourmous and unrealizably complex.
The references I provided are from real scientific literature, researchers at leading universities and it is perfectly acceptable as a discussion technique for both parties to use referenced material.
Unless of course you were personally on the team of the people working with the most publicized gorillas.. otherwise you're just quoting what was said and written by the proponents and those directly involved.
So your team can reference other work but others can't...typical baloney.
Oh and you might read the views on monkey talk by Norm Chomsky, you may have heard of him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Rahvin, posted 08-16-2005 11:35 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 129 of 302 (233672)
08-16-2005 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
Norm Chomsky, you may have heard of him.
Is he related to Noam Chomsky?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Evopeach has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 130 of 302 (233673)
08-16-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
So, how can we be sure we can trust the scientific studies you cited?
They are, after all, a product of the mainstream scietific community which, IIRC, you have accused of being generally biased, dishonest, and untrustworthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 131 of 302 (233674)
08-16-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
In an attempt to not get into trouble I will say that there are zero transitional forms dead or alive that can substantioate the claim that the human brain is jst a few minor genetic muations away from an extant speciaes brain..
Well, you never did answer my question. What species exist, dead or alive, that you believe are not transitional forms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Evopeach has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 132 of 302 (233675)
08-16-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
Evopeach writes:
In an attempt to not get into trouble I will say that there are zero transitional forms dead or alive that can substantioate the claim that the human brain is just a few minor genetic muations away from an extant speciaes brain.
I don't think Rahvin was saying this. Even though our closest living relative, the chimpanzee, is somewhere around 97% similar to humans genetically, with at least 30,000 genes this represents a difference in a potentially large number of genes (depends how the differences are distributed, which I'm not familiar with). A fair number of those genetic differences must be brain related, so I don't think anyone could reasonably claim, and to my knowledge no one here is claiming, that the difference in human and, for example, chimpanzee brain is due to only "a few minor genetic mutations".
I think Rahvin is arguing that many of the structures of the human brain are shared by other apes, and that we just have more and better of them. I think your rebuttal needs to focus on those brain structures which are completely novel in human beings in that they are not shared by other apes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 133 of 302 (233676)
08-16-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
The references I provided are from real scientific literature, researchers at leading universities and it is perfectly acceptable as a discussion technique for both parties to use referenced material.
Can you show me where you actually produced any references to the scientific literature?
Operant conditioning, sometimes called instrumental conditioning or instrumental learning, was first extensively studied by Edward L. Thorndike (1874-1949).
One person entire body of work on a subject is not a reference to the scientific literature.
However, the results were not as impressive as had been reported from the Washoe project ...... to argue that the apparently impressive results may have resulted from a relatively informal experimental approach.
This is just lifted straight out of wikipedia, without even any attribution.
If you want your references to the scientific literature to be taken seriously you might think about actually providing some.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Evopeach has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 134 of 302 (233677)
08-16-2005 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Evopeach
08-16-2005 12:27 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
You didn't click on my links, did you. Disappointing.
The Koko quote was from another source. I quoted because it was short. The liks had info that was a bit too long to post in a forum. They show absolute proof that human brains have an extremely high degree of similarity with various human ancestors. I'll post the links again:
Link 1
And a small quote:
quote:
With regard to brain reorganization, left-right cerebral hemispheric asymmetries exist in extant pongids and the australopithecines, but neither the pattern nor direction is as strongly developed as in modern or fossil Homo. KNM-ER 1470 shows a strong pattern that may be related to handedness and tool-use/manufacture. The degree of asymmetry appears to increase in later hominids.
The appearance of a more human-like third inferior frontal convolution provides another line of evidence about evolutionary reorganization of the brain.
And link 2
quote:
According to the fossil record, the first brain structure appeared in reptiles around 500 million years ago. The functions of this hindbrain included breathing, heart beat regulation, balance, basic motor movements, and foraging skills (1). An interesting trend in brain evolution is that more evolved species tend to preserve the structures responsible for basic behaviors. In other words, evolution is the process of acquiring more and more sophisticated structures, not simply the addition of different structures. Therefore, the modern human brain contains the primitive hindbrain region, often called the protereptilin brain (1), and it is the seat of fundamental homeostatic functions. The major structures found in this region of the brain are the Pons and Medulla. About 250 million years after the appearance of the hindbrain, a new region known as the paleomammalian brain arose. This region consists of the hippocampus and cerebellum and is often referred to as the limbic system. As might be expected, this region is associated with more complex functions such as emotional, sexual, and fighting behaviors (1). The newest and most intricate area of the brain, the cerebrum, was first developed around 200 million years ago. The highly convoluted surface of the cerebrum is called the neocortex. Here we find the location of the higher cognitive functions, like language, thinking, and information processing (1).
Is that better? Please actually click on the links and read my supporting evidence in the future. You can't refute what you don't even know.
In an attempt to not get into trouble I will say that there are zero transitional forms dead or alive that can substantioate the claim that the human brain is jst a few minor genetic muations away from an extant speciaes brain... the gap in cognitive ability, understanding, language skillls, writing skills, self awarenenss and planning for the future we forecast is enourmous and unrealizably complex.
Who cares how large the "gap" is? We have easily observable evidence of common ancestry and a clear chain (if not every single link) showing the gradual development of the brain. The structural similarities between human brains and the brains of our "recent" evolutionary ancestors are uncanny, as paleoneurological evidence shows. These are obviously the "transitional species." It is obvious that the human brain is a slightly altered version of the same feature found in these now extinct species.
If you're going to nitpick that we don't have every single link in the chain, then you are falling into the previously ridiculed Creationist trap - "We have 4 and 5, but where is 4.5? Obviously evolution is wrong!"
The references I provided are from real scientific literature, researchers at leading universities and it is perfectly acceptable as a discussion technique for both parties to use referenced material.
So were mine. But you didn't actually read anything that I posted. You didn't even read my last post, or the posts of the Admins who declared simian sentience to be off-topic.
Unless of course you were personally on the team of the people working with the most publicized gorillas.. otherwise you're just quoting what was said and written by the proponents and those directly involved.
And this differs from you....how?
o your team can reference other work but others can't...typical baloney.
I never said you couldn't reference other work. I said that Koko's self-awareness was debatable - as in some researchers agree with me, and some with you. That's far from saying you can't use other sources.
What it DID seem to show is that, even if Koko was not self-aware as humans are, she did seem to be a lot closer than, say, a dog or other animal.
In any case, no more on Koko - Admin says its off topic. Please either refute my evidence on the evolution of the human brain or conceed.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Evopeach, posted 08-16-2005 12:27 PM Evopeach has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 302 (233678)
08-16-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Rahvin
08-16-2005 12:51 PM


Re: this about sums up the evo argument
quote:
You didn't click on my links, did you. Disappointing.
I feel your pain. I'm still waiting for Evopeach to look at the links in my post and explain why he thinks there are no transitional fossil species.

This message is a reply to:
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