No Gospel without Law, no Mercy without Wrath

It is mythology. No different than the mytholgy of the greeks and romans. It isn't even original mythology. It takes a lot of its stories and ideas from even more ancient religions. Other cultures beat the Jews to the flood story.What makes your book any more real or true than the teachings of other religions? Why are you right and so many other people wrong?edit - spelling errorThis message has been edited by Theodoric, 08-27-2005 07:44 PM

Before plunging in to this topic, I would like clarification on the difference, (definitionwise) between a subjective judgment and an objective judgment.The Jews, collectively as a people were given Law, yet knew not why except that it was what they needed. It would be as if they felt the heat and believed in a Sun but saw no Light.The latter Gentile converts were given a living breathing Law fullfilled through Jesus, Son of God. They felt the heat as long as they were accountable to each other and also through internal conviction. They saw the Light...Jesus Himself.Is relationship with a real internal light a subjective one or an objective one?Jar, you claim that atheists will have a better chance in the long run....is it because they are not blinded by the false light of religion and are free to just do what they internally know to be right? (Many Christians are wise enough to do this, also)The central tenet of Christianity is Christ Himself. He asks us, who do YOU say that I am? Are you suggesting that if He were not literally alive, belief in His "goodness" would be enough? Many purists would disagree...saying that His being alive is everything!Perhaps this could equate to this: Is the source of the Light pure? Original? (Thus, Objective, rather than subjective?)

It is not the book. It is the character behind the book. If you believe that God or gods is merely a creation of the human mind, your ultimate belief originates with human wisdom. What makes God (or Jesus Christ, the character behind the book) any more real is that to us, He transcends human wisdom....He created human wisdom. Thus, for us, the source is not human wisdom. It is a basic issue. Is human wisdom the source of all knowledge, wisdom, and speculation...or not? That is a core issue.
I am not suggesting better or worse, but logic dictates that in any two given belief systems, one is "better" than the other.Or...perhaps, we may call it a truce and agree that we disagree. You in essence may "worship" the evolving saga and potential of human wisdom as a path towards a limitless future, while I may believe in God as the source of all love, life, wisdom, and creative potential...from which all other sources get their inspiration directly or indirectly.

Well, no, I don't think morality is determined by people. I agree there is no consistent objective moral law that can be discovered by reason, but there is one that is laid out in the Bible, God realizing that we'd never figure it out without His help. I believe that human beings retain the moral law originally built into us in some form, but that it has become more or less distorted by the transgression in Eden and by our own transgressions ever since, so that it can even get twisted enough that good is called evil and evil good. That's not quite what I get out of Jesus' words: "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." Nothing about forgiveness to all, nothing about loving God and others, just believe He is God and if you don't you will die in your sins, which doesn't sound like forgiveness to all to me.

I gotta say I don't have a clue what you mean by "Is the source of the Light pure? Original? (Thus, Objective, rather than subjective?)".I also have no idea why something being Pure or Original would make it objective.Judgements would most likely always be subjective. I'm not sure how you could have an objective judgement, perhaps an objective conclusion, but not really judgement. Not just Atheists, any and all non-Christians.The reason is that they are far less likely to be lead astray, as I believe most Christians are, from the message that GOD sent through Jesus.Think back to the discussion of the Way, how broad it is but the gate is narrow. He was talking to his followers. And I think his point is right. Most of his followers, Christians, will misunderstand the message. They will beluieve they are following the path and that the message is the non-Christians won't get through the gate. But that wasn't at all what I believe he was saying. It's the Christians that will have the hardest time getting through the gate.Jesus told his followers what they had to do and it was really simple; Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. But too many Christians get hung up on other things. They're out there worrying about whether or not someone else is sinning, whether or not someone else professes their belief, whether or not someone believes the Bible is literally true, al kinds of things that have nothing to do with loving others as you love yourself.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not familar with where Jesus said "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." Can you point it out to me?As to the moral law, where is it? Can you post it here?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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The Jews, collectively as a people were given Law, yet knew not why except that it was what they needed. It would be as if they felt the heat and believed in a Sun but saw no Light.

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Actually they were given laws, and as far as I can tell laws weren't anything unknown to the Hebrews.What makes you think they didn't know why they were given laws?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

That IS loving others, to want people to be saved from their sins -- and for that they have to find out what sin is since many people don't know -- and to want people to believe what they need to believe in order to be saved -- so it has to be told to them, and to believe the Bible is literally true because it is true. That IS loving others. There are many ways of loving others but that's one of the most important, the work of the preacher and evangelist.This message has been edited by Faith, 08-27-2005 09:47 PM

If they try to do right, that's all, just try to do right, they will be saved. They don't need to believe a word of the Bible is literally true, they don't have to profess a belief in Jesus, they don't have to be Christians, they don't even have to succeed. Just try.Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.It's really that simple.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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As to the moral law, where is it? Can you post it here?

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My first few posts of this thread are all about it, and I specifically identified it in my answer to Slim Jim Message 6. The Ten Commandments are the Law in brief. The whole Law of Moses is laid out in the Pentateuch, primarily in Leviticus and Deuteronomy but also in Exodus and Numbers. Also, Jesus preached the Law in the Sermon on the Mount and in many other teachings.

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I'm not familar with where Jesus said "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." Can you point it out to me?

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John 8:24. I AM is the correct literal rendering of the Greek, but translators add the "He:" And to make it clearer, some commentators on the verse:Matthew Henry, 17th century: Jamieson Fausset and Brown, 19th century: Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel: This message has been edited by Faith, 08-27-2005 10:30 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 08-27-2005 10:41 PM

Okay, I thought you were actually providing a quote, not paraphasing.If you read those you'll note that they all say "believe in GOD"From Chuckie Smith Yup.It's that simple, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.So you are saying that the Moral Law you're talking about are those mentioned in the OT?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I provided the quotes, Jar, so don't be ornery. That was no paraphrase, that was the direct words of Jesus referring to Himself by the Name of God. Yes, "Chuckie" said Jesus used the Name of God, "I AM" --TO REFER TO HIMSELF, 'cause He was talking about Himself in John 8:24. The whole passage in John 8 is about who Jesus is.Yes, Jar, the Moral Law is spelled out in the Pentateuch, not merely "mentioned," and in a sense it drives the entire Bible from one end to the other.

And those moral laws are what Christians should follow?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hello Brian, sorry I didn't catch this post of yours until now. They knew His universal moral law. God was not without witnesses and holy men outside the covenant with Abraham, for example Job and friends, but at the very least we know they had the law written on their hearts, which we are told in the New Testament characterizes the Gentiles who were without the Law of Moses. They are condemned as all of us are whether we know the written Law of God or not, unless we turn to Jesus Christ for salvation. The Ten Commandments were the more perfect, official version of the law written in the heart, given to the Israelites as part of the covenant with God to be His people ruled by Him.This message has been edited by Faith, 08-27-2005 11:41 PM

The MORAL Law, I hope you grasp -- I clearly distinguished it from the ceremonial and dietary laws that were only given to Israel. But OF COURSE we are to follow the moral laws -- in spirit or meaning, since literally some of them are specific to the culture of the times. But in spirit yes, ALL people should follow them. They ARE the Law of the God who created and rules this universe, who will judge ALL of us at the end. It's loving God to love and follow His Law and Jesus said "If you love Me you will obey Me." He also showed clearly that He IS the God who rules the universe.Without Jesus as our redeemer our obedience to the Law is useless, however. Our fallen nature is "enmity with God" and we can hardly do one right thing, which is why we are condemned and need a Savior. And even in Jesus we obey imperfectly and only with the help of the Holy Spirit. Obedience to the Law does not save us, however; We obey it out of love, not from a spirit of earning our salvation. Salvation is the righteousness of God imputed to us by grace; God counts our faith in Him as righteousness, as He did with Abraham, and receives us through the sacrifice of Christ, not by our works. But the Law is holy, perfect righteousness to be obeyed because not obeying it is out of synch with God and His universe. "Oh how I love Your Law," said David in psalm 119. That is the right spirit of the Christian.{Edited to improve clarity with a word here and there}This message has been edited by Faith, 08-28-2005 01:53 AM