No Gospel without Law, no Mercy without Wrath

I'm pretty sure that the legal system in Scotland is the same as that of Ireland and the United States in at least this regard: ignorance of the law is no defence in law. The law presumes that every human possesses an innate ability to differentiate between right and wrong. The (limited) codified law is merely an attempt to describe externally (in order to apply 'justice') the far wider-ranging law within - "that which is written on our hearts". Conscience in other words.Conscience tells us unerringly what we ought to do. Sometimes we follow it, sometimes we don't. When we don't, we break a law - and we know it. We can no more plead ignorance in front of God than we could in a earthly court.

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

If they are either children or parents, they probably wouldn't have trouble reconciling the 'wrath' of a father or mother who loved them yet was 'wrathful' when their behavior was such as to be wrong. The loving parent doesn't want to see it's offspring go astray - for the offsprings own good. And the child will probably (nay definitely) not understand the 'wrath' at the time it is applied - but will hopefully come to see the wisdom in it.Dr. Paul Brand, who worked with lepers, tried to develop an artifical pain system to help lepers (whose affected parts don't feel pain and can be for example, eaten by rats as they sleep). Pain, suffering, guilt, shame are all under the control of God (if not necessarily instigated by him). They are tools used by him to attempt to cause us to turn away from that which is harmful to us (before it's too late) and follow the direction he, as designer of us, knows is best.As the mother of a heroin addict loves her child but hates that the child steals stuff from the house to feed it's habit - and eventually must (at great cost to herself) banish the child from the house in order to protect the rest of the family - so God deals with us and will deal finally with us.Dumping the bits of the Bible one doesn't like is like a child who accepts the parent who lets it eat all the choclate it wants, when it wants, but who throws it's toys out of the playpen when asked to do the chores. Wrathful? yes, Loving? yes. Patient?...."He is patient with you not wanting that any should perish but that all would come to repentance..."

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

[qs=iano]Dumping the bits of the Bible one doesn't like is like a child who accepts the parent who lets it eat all the choclate it wants, when it wants... Richard Dawkins pointed out (correctly) in his book "The Blind Watchmaker" that an argument from incredulity is not an argument. Like I find it incredulous that folk think that abiogenesis is how life came to be. But in arguing against it I would point out that there isn't a shred of evidence for it - not that I find it incredible.(To forestall the potential for "there isn't a shred of evidence for God" I would point out that God is supernatural thus direct evidence won't necessarily be found in the natural (although one could infer God from it). The natural is not the correct place to look)

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

If someone were to write a book which wasn't literally true and which described allegorically, a God who required that we jump through a series of 20 particular hoops, would it act as a basic guide to lead us to God? Rahvins logic means that one would have to find God first in order to know whether the Bible or the 20 Hoop book was describing the correct God and how to be lead to him/her - which makes the book as a guide a little bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.(incidently, the key message of the Bible is we are all born sinners and destined for hell. We are all in desparate need of salvation. And God is the one who provides it). Him being forgiving, being merciful and being loving are reasons why he provides a means of salvation - but as far as we are concerned the reasons matter less. Its the fact he provides it which matters most. And second, that his offer is accepted).

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"But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with - they just don't make sense to him" 1 Corinthians 2:14

Salvation by works in other words? What you do determines your eternal destination? Earn your salvation (by not losing it)?So what did Christ die on the cross for if by being good we could have achieved it ourselves?Just curious...

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Praise for a Private 2nd class from a Major in the Lords army is praise indeed. Do you ever feel like your in the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan: the one where your storming off the landing craft into a hail of enemy fire. Better keep shooting them spiritual bullets and lobbing the Lords grenades there Major Faith.You don't sound like your ashamed of the Gospel either Look forward to meeting you later. Look me up when you get there: I'll be at 8:1 Romans Rd, Paradise County, Heaven.p.s. I wasn't talking about cattle-prodding kids who get out of line. More like taking away their Playstation privileges. A creative parent can discipline as well as a Creative Creator.

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Have a read of "What ever happened to Hell" by John Blanchard. I did and it depressed me for 2 weeks - and I ain't even going to Hell. Faith believes (as I do) that many are heading for an existance worse than anyone could possibly imagine. It is her concern for others that makes her push so hard - and possibly go over the top. You may not agree with her view CK - I know you don't - but try and see her motivation is an honourable one - even if you think it is misguided.And she's a lady too. So with a name as gallant as Charles Knight, it behoves you to act like one (even if the armour is slightly dented and rusty )

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Hey, I've an idea for a thread: "The Iano/Faith mutual appreciation club"

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Faith has a point here Paisano. The reason for the difference could be due, for instance to the view a Christian has differing from the view of someone who thinks they are a Christian but who in fact isn't. I don't say that this is the case, but to go into this could lead into areas as off-topic as "What is a Christian?"

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I'll bugger off now Faith - my contribution seems to be assisting only in pulling stuff off centre(Apologies for the reference to CK about you being a lady...if you're not )I'll head up to the church spire. Will do some recce work and a spot of sniping while I'm there. What was that SPR verse "My sword and my shield..." I may need itAnd remember the sticky bombs...

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

It can only have been a hard station, Faith. But for all that (which Rahvin kinda confirmed) I still see grace, incisiveness, an unwillingness to swerve from the truth - even if it sets you up for a kick in the head and a remarkable patience in the face of at times viciously stubborn resistance (resistance which is to be expected of course). There is a cruel enemy, and it is enemy occupied territory. And at times we'll be left in no doubt about it.If anyone needs proof that only God could enable you to love and be patient in the way you are in this post they don't need your arguement. They just need to observe your graceful tone, take one look at your post count and imagine what you've been through.... and wonder.Me I hope you continue but there are other battlegrounds to fight in. He'll have you where he needs you for sure (you wouldn't make a bad preacher - assuming you ain't already one!)iano

The way I see it, Faith, is that a heart to share comes only from one place and express itself it will. I also know who is the master of sowing doubt. I don't know about you, but I was an argumentitive git all my non-Christian life and I'm still an argumentitive git. I know too that God doesn't change core characteristics of people - he just re-directs them, Paul-like, to serve his aims.You have the Gospel entwined in all you say and it is that which will be used. And it will be used. One day you'll be in heaven and someone will come up to you and say "Hi, I'm Chiroptera or Charles Knight..." or whatever - irrespective of whether this is the 'rightest' thing we could be doing right this second. The Gospel as written is only a fraction of what could be said. Paul when he visited the church would have talked for months on what the Gospel means - answering every question and objection. A little like you do in fact.The view taken around my way on women preachers is that it is not an issue and one of the best of the various people who preach is a woman. They tend to be much more open and personal than the men - which adds a relevance that would otherwise be missing.Maybe you could take time out here with a bible study of Romans or something...for folk who are prepared to hear how the whole thing fits together and are there to listen to see it assembled. Questions, sure but in the context of clarifying how the puzzle fits together as opposed to debating every issue. You could call it "How Goddidit"!If not preacher - then teacher L8r

I know the Bible is infallible but it is not always crystal clear (our fault). I think if you had been in the church then Paul would have clarifed his statement about 'women not speaking' so as to make it plainer that he didn't mean you Which is far less than the bible itself scores so take a bow Me neither, I tend to try to headbutt people into the kingdom In fact if you annoy and you see there is no actual reason for them to be annoyed then you know your on the right path. Like I was at my most virulent against God just before I came to God And unless they keep on slipping the nets he casts (using science etc), have them he will too.

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

From whence perhaps the phrase - 'seeing is believing'. Paul was in a position to rebuke Peter (a significant apostle) for acting hypocritically. No apostle was going to take instruction in matters of faith from somebody in a lesser position. They would only take it from a fellow apostle (one characteristic of which is that they have seen the risen Lord - and seemingly physical or vision 'seeing' have equal merit -as far a the other apostles are concerned anyway)Additionally, Peter was shown in a vison that God plan of salvation (as opposed to all the man made ones) was to include the gentiles (you and me). Visions have a not unimportant role to play.(Sorry Faith....I couldn't help myself. I'll bugger off now)This message has been edited by iano, 01-Sep-2005 04:01 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Don't I know. It's kind of difficult to stand by and watch folk march merrily to their doom though - even when you know your running on an empty tank. Will have to back off too. I'm snorting a bit too much EvC coke meself. Wonder who could be behind that then? And let me tell you...there was no one more surprised that me.Edit wrong link below. I'll be back in a sec with the right one I think.Edit: can't figure out how to link this post and I gotta go. It's message 48 - a few back from this link, Ciaohttp://EvC Forum: The experience of convertingThis message has been edited by iano, 01-Sep-2005 07:13 PMThis message has been edited by iano, 01-Sep-2005 07:48 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."