The beginning of the jihad in Europe?

I'm surprised that CanadianSteve hasn't brought this up yet. Maybe he's been waiting for someone else to start?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Yep. He showed up, right on time.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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And this new posters have arrived, who are not reflexive moral relativists, and witrh whom rational discourse is therefore possible....

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Hee hee hee. While you were gone I was reprimanded for insulting you; however, fortunately for you, I think the moderators are going to be a little lenient with you. Presumably because I actually should know better.Edited to add:
P.S. I was tempted to start this very thread myself, just to see if I could get you to return. randman just saved me the trouble.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 08-Nov-2005 04:03 PM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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i do believe that moral relativism has taken hold such that it propels reflexive reactions in place of sober intellectual judgment.

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I would ask for an example that shows that I am guilty of such a thing; unfortunately, all the earlier thread in which you and I participated are now closed (having gone over 300 posts), and the particular subject matter is not directly relevant to this thread.However, I will say that if you are going to accuse me (or anyone else) of "moral relativism", rather than making such broad accusations you should point it out during the argument itself, when a particular post shows evidence of lack of "sober judgement" or "moral relativism" -- you should also be prepared to explain why you are making such an accusation, beyond the fact that the post disagrees with your opinion or that of the particular websites that you are using.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

If I recall correctly, you merely claimed that the other person was guilty of moral relativism, presumably for no more reason than you disagreed with their position.As far as this thread goes, I haven't paid particular close attention to it.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Actually, the people who made that claim did back them up with historical examples and examples from current events. Those examples may have been related inaccurately, those examples may have been interpreted incorrectly, other explanations may be possible for those examples, but that is very, very different saying those claims were baseless.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

What are we to disagree on? Whether or not that the individuals who compared fundamentalist Christians with Islamists explained why they felt the comparisons were valid? People can check those previous threads to verify that they did so.Or are we to disagree that by providing the reasons for their comparisons, their claims were therefore not baseless? Checking the dictionary for the definition of "baseless" will resolve that one.Honestly, sometimes I feel that you use the phrase "agree to disagree" to mean that you realize that you have lost a point but cannot admit it.Or does the fact that you are misusing the term "baseless" mean that I am the one that is a moral relativist and incapable of rational argument?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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We simply will not agree.

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That is undoubtably true. I am just trying to figure out with what are we disagreeing here? You made the claim that people made the claim that Christian fundamentalists and Islamists were comparable, and that this claim is baseless. I countered that this is not true; people gave reasons for making their claims, and so the claims were, by definition, not baseless. You are now saying that we are going to disagree.To what are we disagreeing? I claim that people gave reasons for their comparison. Is this where we are disagreeing? As I said, people can go back to those previous threads and read them.I claim that by providing reasons for their claims, that their claims were therefore not baseless. Is this where we need to disagree? Because, as I said, people can check the dictionary for the term "baseless".-

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Rather, any conversation on this will go on and on, proving nothing, satisfying no one.

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Well, to tell the truth, I find these conversations very satisfying. Since you do not appear to be willing to admit that you made a stronger statement than you should have (something that happens to everyone, and so nothing to really be ashamed of), I assume that I caught you doing what you are claiming everyone else does: you are simply dismissing the other peoples' arguments because you could not actually dispute them. I find that immensely satisfying, to tell the truth.-

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We'll just have to make our points where relevant, and disagree at those times.

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You made the claim that people made the baseless assertian that fundamentalist Christians are comparable to Islamists. That claim is relevant to the conversation we have been having.I countered that your claim was untrue; that people provided their reasons for making this assertian, and so their assertians were not baseless.We can disagree here, but anyone can go back to those threads and reread them.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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the world is awash in Islamic terror, in nations across the globe and irrespective of faith or ethnicity. There is no equivalent Christian violence. Christian nations, in fact, are almost all peaceful, tolerant, liberal democracies, that even allow Muslims to pray, preach and convert.

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What? This isn't even relevant to the point that I am making. We are discussing whether or not other people were making baseless claims. That you disagree with them does not make their claims baseless. Hell, even if those other people are wrong, their claims are still not baseless. Simply stating that they are making baseless claims is an attempt to denigrate their arguments without actually dealing with them with facts or logic.-

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So to you the last word, where, frankly, i expect you to provide another example of my point.

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My prediction is that your next post will say something like

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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this is what underlies many of our differences, and specifically this discussion.

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Actually, what underlies this discussion is whether it was fair of you to characterize a previously expressed opinion as baseless.If a person can present factual evidence and/or a logical argument to support her position, her opinion is not baseless. She may even be wrong, her facts may be inaccurate, or her premises may make her argument unsound. But if it remains necessary to examine her facts and her arguments, then her opinion is not baseless.When you accuse others of making baseless assertians you are saying that they make assertians with very little effort, if any, to support them. So when you accused others of making baseless assertians, which is definitely not true since in the instances to which you referred, they did in fact present supporting evidence, you either do not understand their arguments or you are deliberately denigrating them so as not to have to confront them.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Since Muslim Arabs have an instinctive hatred for liberty and freedom and will not be able to control their violent opposition to it, then clearly if Arabs aren't rioting in Israel it's because Israel must be a comfortable place (that is, neither free nor democratic) for them to live.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 10-Nov-2005 03:21 AM

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

You know, CanadianSteve, it is multicultural tolerationists like you who are trying to turn our liberal democratic ideals into a suicide pact.The War Verses in the Koran are quite clear. Any Muslim who truly believes in his religion simply cannot tolerate a liberal democratic society and must fight to convert the world to Islam, using force if necessary. If Arabs in Israel are living peaceably, it can only mean that Israel is an Islamic state.It makes sense, actually. There is a world-wide Wahabbi conspiracy to bring the entire world under Sharia law. Clearly they have succeeded in Israel. It is reflexive contrarians like you who will not admit the obvious truth.If that crypto-Islamist, Sharon, murders any more people in the name of Allah, the blood will be on your hands.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

What's wrong, Steve? Didn't I use enough buzzwords?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Your lack of a sense of humor, Steve, is one more symptom of this obsessive-complusive behavior that you have shown on this topic.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Despite your description to make it sound like no one lived there, in fact there were many millions of Arabs and only a small portion of Jews.

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And that small portion of Jews, if I recall correctly, were none too pleased with these foreign Zionists coming in, either.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt