The beginning of the jihad in Europe?

Why can't it be sexual rights for everyone? Gays are not the only persecuted sexual group.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Essentially I have already answered these questions. The answer would be when their numbers made it an impractical matter for them to leave, and doing so would involved commiting harm to them. What is hard to figure out about this?Yes it is sort of arbitrary, there will be a grey area, however there are times well past and out of the grey area. At this point in time we are out of the grey area for those issues. Well the racist is now a denier as well, how fitting. The facts are that Jews certainly did commit terrorist acts and atrocities against Arabs. They have destroyed lands and people and were the first to use every terrorist tactic now employed by Arabs.And I have never claimed that Arabs do not commit atrocities against Israelis. Indeed I am a an open critic of suicide bombings and other acts of terror and violence Palestinian and other groups have used.See that's the point. I can look at a thing and admit where things are not as they should be, not helpful, and also admit where things are correct. You must push everything into pure black and white with Jews as some uncorruptible force for good, and Arabs a drooling horde of killers set to destroy Jews. Well actually you paint all of Islam as that as well, but right now its the Arabs. Gas chambers? You have no sense of proportion or justice. The Israelis have responded in much more than equal measure. Before during and after there land grabs they have meted out collective punishments against defenseless people which have NOTHING to do with comparisons to Dresden and Japan. People were slaughtered en masse.In the last initifada alone more Palestinians have been killed than Jews, and many more of them wholly innocent. This using techniques that are forbidden anywhere else.There is no moral right to a God given homeland over the present population. That is what Hitler claimed over Jews, he was wrong then and Israelis are wrong now. It is also NOT DEMOCRATIC. I notice that you have since slithered away from debating that original point. So ad hominem and threats? This is your logic? If history judges my words as anti-semitic then a dark future it must be. Of course you ignore your own scriptures which admonish such talk as vanity and foolishness.I am not anti-semitic. It is not anti-semitic to say that it is not wise and healthy and just to create a nation for the advancement of one single race/religion over the rest of the people in a region. To say such a thing is to be democratic and freedom loving.It would be anti-semitic, or point to such a thing, if I agreed with such mechanisms for others and not for Israelis, but I don't. Anyone who does this is being unjust, undemocratic, and against modern concepts of international law.Furthermore, it seems much more anti-semitic to view jews as a bunch of pressed upon losers, whose only possible recourse to survival in the world at large is to band together in a single racist nation-state. That is the only way they can get ahead?They are welcome in the US. They are certainly welcome here in Holland. I have lived side by side with them and fought with them for justice and freedom against those that would try to oppress them, just as they stand side by side with others that might be oppressed.Yours is a very shortsighted and ugly view of both Jews and the rest of the world. Stereotyping and racist, even to your own people.I don't know what history will judge of my views, but I know what I think of yours, and I know where the rules of logic and evidence stand regarding your arguments. It is not kind.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You can consider him a moral authority for yourself all you want. Intriguingly according to your last post that must make you the raging liberal.In any case, what he is not is a factual authority. He cannot speak for jews and he cannot speak for what objectively is or is not. He can say whatever he likes on any subject, but his words can be compared with reality.Thus you cannot quote him and expect it to carry weight simply because he said it in an argument. That is a logical fallacy. And you certainly cannot quote him regarding what all Jews want when he isn't even a Jew himself.But I digress, you have yet to deal with the harm your acceptance of this statement by MLK does to your overall argument. It pretty much sets the bottom line that Jews did not live there to set some unbroken chain of "ownership", and it without question shows that this is a religious-racist state being imposed upon the people of a region by force in the name of religion. Thus no modern liberal democratic principles at all.Too bad about that logic thing, huh?By the way it occured to me lately to ask you about your criticism of Arabs being basically nomadic. How did Israel come to be exactly? What were the jews referred to and referred to themselves when they ENTERED that region? What does that mean for the others that had lived there? Hmmmm.Yeah, too bad about that logic thing.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

What? Well let's just say it must be based upon point of view. I see quite the opposite going on. It's not debatable? Yeah that sounds quite reasonable.You appear to not know much about anything regarding that issue except base propaganda. Heck, you didn't even know the basic history.The idea that Palestinians hate Israel is not farfetched. Israel is an injustice thrown upon them and oppressive to them in daily life. It is also a source of embarassment as they lost in struggle to beat that injustice.The idea that there are some Palestinians who are actually anti-semitic and hate jews and want Israel destroyed (and perhaps all jews killed) is also not far fetched. There are lost of grades of racism and bigotry everywhere and such certainly exists there, and such groups use the hatred many Palestinians have toward Israel (in general) to hating Jews in specific.The problem comes in when the hatred of Israel that many do have, becomes synonymous with overt antisemitism, or commitments to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. That is racist stereotyping of Palestinians, just as large as the one you just set out that they say Jews capture and eat babies.Do you know what is said about Palestinians by the rabid settler factions? Don't you see what Canadian Steve is perpetuating about Palestinians? These are just as propagandistic an unreal and sets the stage for only one solution. Heck, you can see him specifically setting the stage that Israelis have a moral right for a "final solution" option against the Arabic hordes.In reality most Palestinians simply want peace. They want an end to repression and get some peace and prosperity. What you have against this are the extremist groups ON BOTH SIDES, which keep upsetting this possibility.The problem is that in Israel Jewish extremists have control of the govt. Thus whatever moderates try to do to end the conflict and achieve a settlement, the extremist Israeli govt can take overt action to disrupt the process, or use an action by Palestinian extremists as justification to nullify the process and then act out collective punishment (which is illegal) to make it harder for the Palestinian moderates to stay moderate.You really must do more research. Let me explain something. When I grew up pretty much all I had was the Israeli side of things. It was just obvious who was right and who was wrong. Then I started doing some research simply to learn more about what was going on and what had happened and was stunned.Finding out the truth did not make me hate Jews, just as finding out the truth about Nazi Germany would not make me hate germans. What it did make me was unhappy with an obvious injustice that not only did happen, but continues to happen. And it is not "jews" perpetuating the problem, nor even all Israelis. It is a group of radical Zionists who want a racist nation state.Their own words are quite clear on this subject. They can use all the holocaust justifications that they want, but that does not clear what they are actually arguing for and state. They believe God granted them that land and they should have it, despite the reality on the ground that they are in a land with many other different peoples.They say they cannot live anywhere else. Why not? Do you believe they will suffer a holocaust in America? Australia? And the only defense is to have a nation imposed upon the people there?You know damn well that the any Palestinian leadership does not buy into crap like Jews eat babies, and the majority would not, even if there are (and I do not doubt there are) groups pushing that kind of garbage for their own extremist ends.What is disturbing is that actual Israeli leadership buys into crap like all Arabs want to destroy Israel and Jews.Extremists are the problem, CS is part of that problem.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)