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Author | Topic: Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JimBobCarl Inactive Junior Member |
OK, I recently, well a while back started a thread on this to which I got A LOT of "talking in circles", answers. Here ie the deal:
A few months back our Pastor asked this question: "Here is your "homework: Why did not the lineage of Jesus Christ go through Jacob's son Joesph, AND why did it go through Judah's boodline? I need specific answers to both pqrts of the question" Well after searching/looking/asking/crossreferencing/ et.al. I STILL cannot come up with BOTH parts' answers. So What am I asking for...? I need someone to explain specifics on why Judah. AND WHY NOT, Joesph. I know that your thinking: Is it in the Bible? The answer is YES, our pastor said It IS IN There. SO please give me book:chapter:verses, and also, Please explain BOTH parts to me, PLEASE??? I have really searched to no avail, Can someone PLEASE help me. May God Bless and Keep you Throughout the Holiday season!!!!
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Why did not the lineage of Jesus Christ go through Jacob's son Joesph AND why did it go through Judah's boodline? cheap answer: because jesus was god's son, not joseph's. but you're probably talking about the jacob and joseph in the old testament. on the off chance that he's NOT and it's a trick question:
quote: quote: jeconiah appears about verse 11 or 12 in matthew's genealogy of jesus. matthew presents a royal lineage, which would be neccessary to make jesus king, but luke presents a blood genealogy. they don't agree, and the line of kings is broken at jeconiah because of the babylonian captivity. some read this as god working around his own curse, but that bit of apology or mental gymnastics is up to you. i might also point out that matthew's genealogy favours the number 14 over agreeing with chronicles -- it leaves out the curse jehoiakim entirely, as well as three other kings. it's also substantially shorter than luke's. my person advice?
quote: quote: but if it's joseph, son of jacob the old testament patriarch, not jesus's father joseph, son of jacob (according to matthew), i don't see why you need specific answers for both parts. just one will do:
quote: judah is the royal tribe of the jews. king david was the from the tribe of judah. for jesus to righfully be the messiah, and be a king of israel, he would have to be from david's line, and david was from judah. do you need a bunch of verses for that?
quote: quote: quote: how about you return this answer for the first part to your teacher: "what does either joseph have to do with anything?"
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JimBobCarl Inactive Junior Member |
Thanks, A LOT!!!!!
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
sure. let me know if that answers your question, and which one he meant.
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Carico Inactive Member |
Jesus descended from the house of David rather than Joseph himself because Jesus was born of His Father in heaven which has tremendous significance. Jesus said not to call anyone on earth "father" because we have one Father and he is in heaven. He is talking about all those born again of the Spirit of God now only have one Father. And God has always been Christ's ONLY Father which is precisely what makes him the Son of God.
This message has been edited by Carico, 12-29-2005 09:29 AM
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
If Joseph were the real father of Jesus of Nazareth then that would disqualify Jesus from being the Messiah.
No descendent of Jeconiah was to sit on the throne of David according to God's own promise in the book of Jeremiah. This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 06:58 PM This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 06:59 PM
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Isn't it amazing that the Bible itself proves that Jesus wasn't the messiah?
All it takes is a careful reading of the text to prove that Jesus was no messiah. Brian
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ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Quite correct. Which leaves another conumdrum that has to be explained away.
To be of 'The seed of David', the person has to be of a direct line male decendent without a break in the lineage. Therefore, the lineage would have to go THROUGH Joseph. If Joseph was NOT the father, then Jesus would be the status of a Mamzer, and would not have been allowed in the temple. Combine this with the disagreement about Jesus birth date between Matthew and Luke, the two vastly differet nativity stories, the discrepency between Matthew and Lukes geneologies, you can see why the author of 2 timothy warned against being worried about endless geneologies.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
carico: i'm not sure what i can say that i didn't already. i think i provided a pretty decent statement of the facts, above. however, let me address a few points:
Jesus descended from the house of David rather than Joseph himself because Jesus was born of His Father in heaven which has tremendous significance. well, according to the new testament (both matthew AND luke) joseph is of beth-david. matthew in particular puts jesus not just in david's family, but in the royal line. this of course presents a major problem. the last royal king of beth-david was cursed. so he can't claim to be the heir to the throne that way.
And God has always been Christ's ONLY Father which is precisely what makes him the Son of God. but that doesn't make him the heir to the line of judah, nor does it make him the king of israel. like i said, this is a bit of a problem. let's look at something else, for a second. i realize this is going to open a can of worms, but whatever.
quote: now, i know this is standard christian doctrine to read this as prophecy of christ. but it's not. psalms are psalms, not prophecy. this one is a psalm of david. look at the phrasing: the day he is made king, he will proclaim that god has said he is god's son, begotten that day. christ was god's son from the day he was born, and he was never literally king of israel. so, now for the abstract part. christ was a son of god. does being god's son make one king of israel? well, no.
quote: quote: both of these take place before israel is a country (or so they say about job). and in job, satan is among the sons of god, plural. maybe even part of the group? and then there's this verse:
quote: apparently, in the septuagint, this says "...according to the number of the sons of God." "children of israel" doesn't make any sense, actually. when god divided the nations (genesis 11) israel (jacob) hadn't even been born, let alone have children. as "sons of god" it reads like god has set either and angel or a king over each country. the next verse says:
quote: ...god is personally watching over israel. now, it's standard jewish doctrine, as well as christian, to read "sons of god" as divine in nature. and that made this verse entirely too polytheistic, which might be why it was changed in the 400 years between the texts we have. but i see no reason to read "son of god" as anything other than an idiomatic way of saying "king."
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
If Joseph were the real father of Jesus of Nazareth then that would disqualify Jesus from being the Messiah. No descendent of Jeconiah was to sit on the throne of David according to God's own promise in the book of Jeremiah. but, you see, the problem is that messiah had to come from the line of david, which means going through jeconiah. the new testament tries to have it both ways.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
but, you see, the problem is that messiah had to come from the line of david, which means going through jeconiah. the new testament tries to have it both ways. Jesus was a descendent of David. He was just a descendent of David through Mary. He was not a descendent of David through Joseph. Joseph was: 1.) Not his real physical father 2.) Was a descendent of David through a line in which God had promised no descendent of Jeconiah would be a king. There was a line through David's son Nathan. And another line through David's son Solomon. Jesus was David's descendent through Nathan via Mary. He was not a descendent of David through Solomon and Jeconiah via Joseph. This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 11:02 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No problem. Jesus wasn't a King of Israel anyway.
This message has been edited by jar, 01-03-2006 10:20 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
No problem. Jesus wasn't a King of Israel anyway Jesus is the divine Messianic King of Israel rejected by Israel. He is the rejected King. But He is the King of Israel. When He road into Jerusalem on a donkey He fulfilled the prophecy of Zechariah of the King of Israel coming into Zion humble and riding on a donkey: "Now this took place in order that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled saying, Say to the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King is coming to you, meek and mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, a foal of a beast of burden" (Matt. 21:4,5 refering to Zechariah 9:9)
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yeah, I know some people use Zechariah as a messianic prophecy refering to Jesus, but if you read on it becomes pretty clear that it does not refer to Jesus, but to a coming warlord.
13When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. 15The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar. 16And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land. 17For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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