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Author Topic:   Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 184 (275485)
01-03-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jaywill
01-03-2006 6:58 PM


It is obvious Jesus wasn't the messiah
Isn't it amazing that the Bible itself proves that Jesus wasn't the messiah?
All it takes is a careful reading of the text to prove that Jesus was no messiah.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 6:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 184 (275652)
01-04-2006 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
01-03-2006 10:58 PM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Jesus was a descendent of David. He was just a descendent of David through Mary.
There are two terminal flaws in this claim. Firstly, blood doesn't pass through a female line, and secondly (if we ignore the first flaw), Mary isn't even in the messianic bloodline.
The establishment of the Davidic bloodline is outlined in 2 Samuel 7:4-16:
That night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying: "Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt to this day. I have been moving from place to place with a tent as my dwelling.
Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their rulers whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, "Why have you not built me a house of cedar?" '
"Now then, tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD Almighty says: I took you from the pasture and from following the flock to be ruler over my people Israel. I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men of the earth. And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies.
" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "
We can see that God has promised that David's dynasty will reign forever, and that it HAS to be a direct blood descendant of David's who 'will come from his body'. This is reinforced throughout the Old Testament, for example Psalm 132:11-12:
The LORD swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: "One of your own descendants I will place on your throne if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne for ever and ever.
The Old Testament clearly states that the messiah will be a direct descendant of David's, and not an adopted son as many Christians mistakenly claim. Adopting someone does not make them of the same blood and it actually contradicts God's promise to David. God states that the messiah will come from David's own body and as Jesus did not have an earthly father, it is impossible for him to be the messiah. Think about it. By claiming that someone adopted by a descendant of David makes them a messianic candidate negates God's promise that it would be a direct descendant. People who want adopted children to be possible messiahs have actually opened up the possibility that anyone at all could be the messiah, and directly contradict God's word.
With the bloodline through Joseph nullified, the only other possibility that Jesus is descended from David would be through his mother Mary. Again, this is fraught with errors.
It is claimed that Mary's genealogy is outlined in Luke chapter three. However, the New Testament never claims that this is Mary's genealogy, it is quite clearly a different genealogy of Joseph. Look at the beginning of the text:
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli
The text is explicitly claiming that Joseph was the son of Heli, and not his son in law as many people claim.
How on earth can a genealogy of a man be taken through his father in law, unless you marry your sister, which would make your father in law your father as well?
There is no genealogy in the entire Bible, New and Old Testaments, that trace a man's genealogy through his father in law, and this genealogy is no different.
But, Christians still insist that it is Mary's linage that is in Luke, making her a descendant of David and hence giving Jesus a direct link, even though the New Testament never claims that Mary is the daughter of Heli.
The author's of the New Testament never give us any reason to believe that Mary was descended from David, despite some obvious places where one would expect this information to be mentioned. For example, in Luke 1:26-27
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
It is Joseph's Davidic descent that is mentioned here and not Mary's. Why wouldn't this verse emphasise that Mary was also descended from David? Why not say that Gabriel was 'sent to a virgin, a descendant of David' if her bloodline was to be of any use?
A cold hard fact is that Mary is never referred to anywhere in the New Testament as a descendant of David, while every possible reference to David is through Joseph.
Another example of this is in Luke 2:4-5:
So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.
They went to Bethlehem because HE belonged to the house and line of David not because THEY belonged to the house and line of David!
But still Christians maintain that this is Mary's genealogy.
If we ignore all the evidence and accept that this is Mary's genealogy, then it actually does no good anyway, as Davidic descent passed through David's son Solomon and not Nathan as hoped for by so many.
God makes it clear that it is Solomon's line that will have the promise of eternal kingship.
2 Samuel 7:13
He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Read in context, this reference clearly informs us that it is relating to one person. He will build a house, his kingdom forever. The 'house for my name' is the Temple built by Solomon, and it is Solomon's kingdom that will be established forever. It doesn't mention that 'they will build a house, or I will establish 'their' kingdom forever, it is referring to a single person, and that person is Solomon. So, Nathan's linage is irrelevant as it is not included in God's promise to David.
That it is Solomon who is chosen by God is supported by 1 Chronicles 29:1:
Then King David said to the whole assembly: "My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen, is young and inexperienced The task is great, because this palatial structure is not for man but for the LORD God.
Solomon was chosen to 'build a house for God's name' not Nathan, and it is through the bloodline of builder of the Temple that the promise was made.
There is no way to link Jesus to David, the author of Matthew's gospel effectively killed that off with his misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.
Put simply, Jesus was no messiah, and his complete failure to fulfill any messianic prophecy just adds support.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 10:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 40 of 184 (275989)
01-05-2006 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jaywill
01-05-2006 7:24 AM


Bloodline
You still haven't established a Davidic bloodline for Jesus.
Thought I'd point that out for you.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 7:24 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 7:40 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 43 of 184 (275993)
01-05-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jaywill
01-05-2006 7:40 AM


Re: Bloodline
Bloodline is simply a direct descendant of a male. Nothing to do with x and y nonsense.
FACT, Jesus was not a direct descendant of Solomon,whom the LORD had promised the Messiah would come from. Another fact is that Jesus simply could not have been the Messiah, it is all there i nbalck and white, you just need to read it with an open mind.
Whoever wrote Matthew's gospel made a huge error in his understanding of Isaiah 7:14, in his urgency to try and make Jesus something special he effectively negated Jesus' messianic claims.
If you wish to keep Jesus as the messiah, by ignoring huge chunks of the Old testament, then feel free.
Anyway, you still haven't established a bloodline from Jesus to Solomon, or indeed to David.
Good luck, keep trying it may be in there somewhere.
[Abe]
Joseph was not actually the son of Heli but was reckoned his son according to the law. Joseph was the son-in-law if Heli, Mary’s father.
Where in the entire Bible is there a genealogy that goes through a man's father in law? What would be the point!!
Brian
This message has been edited by Brian, 01-05-2006 07:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 7:40 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 8:03 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 45 of 184 (275997)
01-05-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jaywill
01-05-2006 8:03 AM


Re: Bloodline
Hi,
Post 20 on this very thread, it was addressed to you. Have a read through it when you have time.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 8:03 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 8:24 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 47 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 8:36 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 184 (276007)
01-05-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jaywill
01-05-2006 8:36 AM


Re: Bloodline
Tell me why you don't simply insist that Solomon is the Messiah?
Because that isn't what the passage says.
He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 8:36 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 9:04 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 50 of 184 (276010)
01-05-2006 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jaywill
01-05-2006 9:04 AM


Re: Bloodline
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 9:04 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:01 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 51 of 184 (276012)
01-05-2006 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jaywill
01-04-2006 4:38 PM


Credit where it is due.
The blindman at Jericho - Mt 9:27; Mr 10:47
The Canaanite Woman - Mt 15:22
The questioning crowd - Mt 12:23
The massive crowd at the Triumphal Entry - Mt 21:15
Apostle Peter - Acts 2.25ff
Apostle Paul - Acts 13.22ff; Romans 1.3; 2 Tim 2.8
Apostle John - Revelation 5:5; 22.16
It is normal to give credit to the source where you glean your info.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 4:38 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:06 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 57 of 184 (276028)
01-05-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
01-05-2006 10:01 AM


Re: Bloodline
Then why do you need anymore than to just say that Solomon is the fulfillment of this messianic prophecy and leave it at that?
The prophecy insisted that Solomon's descendants would be on the throne of Israel forever. Solomon was a messiah, as was every King of Israel. The future messiah, the one that would free Israel from her enemies and establish peace on Earth, obviously has to be a descendant of Solomon if this prophecy is true.
Jesus wasn't from the line of Solomon, nor did he ever installed as King of Israel, thus, this is only one reason why Jesus was no messiah.
If Solomon was THEE messiah, then why did subsequent prophets ( such as Jeremiah) still speak of the messiah to come?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:01 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 58 of 184 (276029)
01-05-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jaywill
01-05-2006 10:06 AM


Re: Credit where it is due.
This is essentially one of the forum rules:
7. Never include material not your own without attribution to the original source.
I am not accusing you of anything J, just pointing out what you may have overlooked.
It is not a problem, just the done thing.
I don't even suspect that you have to gain any writer's permission to use anything as long as you reference it.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:06 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:57 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 60 of 184 (276038)
01-05-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jaywill
01-05-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Credit where it is due.
So if I go through every single one of your posts on this Forum I should see that everywhere you have stated something that you read somewhere else you have left us a reference then.
Probably. It has been stated here a few times that I am one of the very few people who do reference sources. I very very very seldom reference websites, I normally take my info from books, and I always cite them.
If I had quoted a long section I would have referenced it.
The quantity is immaterial, if it isn't your own work, then you say where it came from, simple.
I reserve the right to limit that practice to a substantial portion of copied material.
It was copied verbatim from Miller, well almost verbatim. He did the groundwork not you, it is common courtesy to give him the credit.
And if that is a problem I will gladly leave this forum. Contact the Admins with your complaint.
But, I am not complaining, I just pointed out a forum rule that you may have overlooked.
I used to be an Admin here, and I would have responded in Admin mode if I still was an Admin. But Admin work is extremely time consuming, so we should all pitch in to help out.
It isn't a complaint, I am not accusing you of plagiarism, so chill out and give credit where it is due.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 10:57 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 68 of 184 (276720)
01-07-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
01-07-2006 10:24 AM


Re: Bloodline
Hi Jay,
The Jewish expectation was that Moses would come and immediatly deliver the Israelites from Pharoah.
Only Jews or the Hebrews as well?
What are you basing this on?
When Pharoah's reaction was to encrease the amount of daily slave work they had to do thier expectation turned to anger toward Moses.
Of course, God made it impossible for the pharaoh to agree to let the Hebrews go by hardening his heart. Yahweh wanted to flex a bit of divine muscle, He was intent on murdering thousands of innocent Egyptian men, women and children.
But God's word and how God fulfills His word transcends the "Jewish expectation."
But, there’s still no bloodline from Jesus to Solomon, do you think that matters or not?
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 01-07-2006 04:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 01-07-2006 10:24 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-07-2006 7:32 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 79 of 184 (277080)
01-08-2006 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
01-07-2006 7:32 PM


Excellent
trust the Apostle Paul's word over your word. That's pretty much the end of the matter for me.
What about trusting your own ability to read?
You can see for yourself that Jesus has no bloodline to Solomon, yet you ignore this, why do you ignore it?
Have you made up your mind that Jesus was the messiah and you are going to ignore anything that demonstrates that this is untrue? How can anyone live like that? It is your life I suppose, I would just find it dificult to follow a faith that I know contradicts itself. If I was going back to Christianity I'd need to sort Jesus' bloodline problem out, as well as a lot of other things about him.
If it comes down to a difference between God's revelation and your opinion, I'll side with God's revelation.
God's revelation shows that Jesus was no messiah, unless you do not consider the Old Testament to be God's revelation?
Or, is the Old Testament only to be taken as true in certain places? Just hijack another cultures scriptures and then butcher them into fitting a preconcieved notion about some guy?
God knows all the facts. Whereas your opinion is just your invention.
Well, God seems to have made a promise to David, a promise that you are willing to ignore to keep Jesus in a position he did not earn. It isn't me who promised David anything, you can read the promise yourself. It is there in black and white, Jesus has no bloodline to Solomon, and you ignore it.
Isn't the human mind a wonderful thing, it allows us to believe anything we want despite the evidence.
Cognitive dissonance I believe it is called.
Anyway, carry on.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-07-2006 7:32 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2006 7:03 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 86 of 184 (277190)
01-08-2006 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jaywill
01-08-2006 7:03 AM


Re: Excellent
Your basic requirement that the Messiah must be a descendent of Solomon is false. The Messianic king to establish David's throne forever does not have to be a descendent of Solomon.
Any chance of supporting this? I would appreciate biblical references. Many thanks.
And you do not have the evidence that the Messiah must be a descendent of Solomon.
So, how do you solve the problem that I mentioned?
Brian.
AbE, the rest of your post is simple pointless religious fanatical ramblings that do nothing to further the discussion.
This message has been edited by Brian, 01-08-2006 04:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2006 7:03 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2006 6:12 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 89 of 184 (277263)
01-08-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jaywill
01-08-2006 6:12 PM


Re: Excellent
The burden is on you to support your claim that because Jesus was not descendent from Solomon, He cannot be the Christ.
What have we been discussing for the past few days? is the reference is question a mistake on my part, and if it is, then why?
Should I expect an antichrist to have another reaction to being exposed?
Antichrist?
I am following the Bible texts, I have done for a long time, I have no axe to grind. You can read the text yourself, or you can ignore it if you want, but the people who are really interested in the Bible will continue to study it with an open mind.
Still no bloodline.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 01-08-2006 6:12 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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