Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's

cheap answer: because jesus was god's son, not joseph's. but you're probably talking about the jacob and joseph in the old testament. on the off chance that he's NOT and it's a trick question:

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Jer 36:29-30

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And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast? Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

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1Ch 3:16 And the sons of Jehoiakim: Jeconiah his son, Zedekiah his son.

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jeconiah appears about verse 11 or 12 in matthew's genealogy of jesus. matthew presents a royal lineage, which would be neccessary to make jesus king, but luke presents a blood genealogy. they don't agree, and the line of kings is broken at jeconiah because of the babylonian captivity. some read this as god working around his own curse, but that bit of apology or mental gymnastics is up to you.i might also point out that matthew's genealogy favours the number 14 over agreeing with chronicles -- it leaves out the curse jehoiakim entirely, as well as three other kings. it's also substantially shorter than luke's.my person advice?

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1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

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Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

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but if it's joseph, son of jacob the old testament patriarch, not jesus's father joseph, son of jacob (according to matthew), i don't see why you need specific answers for both parts. just one will do:

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Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].

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judah is the royal tribe of the jews. king david was the from the tribe of judah. for jesus to righfully be the messiah, and be a king of israel, he would have to be from david's line, and david was from judah. do you need a bunch of verses for that?

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Gen 46:12 And the sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Pharez, and Zerah: but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan. And the sons of Pharez were Hezron and Hamul.

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Rth 4:18-22

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Now these [are] the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron, And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab, And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon, And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed, And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

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2Sa 7:12-17

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And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

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how about you return this answer for the first part to your teacher: "what does either joseph have to do with anything?"

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אָרַח

sure. let me know if that answers your question, and which one he meant.

carico: i'm not sure what i can say that i didn't already. i think i provided a pretty decent statement of the facts, above. however, let me address a few points: well, according to the new testament (both matthew AND luke) joseph is of beth-david. matthew in particular puts jesus not just in david's family, but in the royal line. this of course presents a major problem. the last royal king of beth-david was cursed. so he can't claim to be the heir to the throne that way. but that doesn't make him the heir to the line of judah, nor does it make him the king of israel. like i said, this is a bit of a problem. let's look at something else, for a second. i realize this is going to open a can of worms, but whatever.

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Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

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now, i know this is standard christian doctrine to read this as prophecy of christ. but it's not. psalms are psalms, not prophecy. this one is a psalm of david. look at the phrasing: the day he is made king, he will proclaim that god has said he is god's son, begotten that day. christ was god's son from the day he was born, and he was never literally king of israel.so, now for the abstract part. christ was a son of god. does being god's son make one king of israel? well, no.

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Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

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Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

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both of these take place before israel is a country (or so they say about job). and in job, satan is among the sons of god, plural. maybe even part of the group? and then there's this verse:

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Deu 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

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apparently, in the septuagint, this says "...according to the number of the sons of God." "children of israel" doesn't make any sense, actually. when god divided the nations (genesis 11) israel (jacob) hadn't even been born, let alone have children. as "sons of god" it reads like god has set either and angel or a king over each country. the next verse says:

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Deu 32:9 For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

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...god is personally watching over israel. now, it's standard jewish doctrine, as well as christian, to read "sons of god" as divine in nature. and that made this verse entirely too polytheistic, which might be why it was changed in the 400 years between the texts we have. but i see no reason to read "son of god" as anything other than an idiomatic way of saying "king."

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אָרַח

but, you see, the problem is that messiah had to come from the line of david, which means going through jeconiah. the new testament tries to have it both ways.

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אָרַח

that's a later interpretation of luke's genealogy; i've heard it before. the PROBLEM is that in order to be KING (and messiah in the jewish sense) he had to be of david's royal lineage, not just related.anyways, god only says he'll punish the sins of the father to the fourth generation:

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Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

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i should also like to point out that jehoiakim's son and grandson do reign -- just in captivity. i think it would suffice to say that the curse is over when captivity ends. sound fair?

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אָרַח

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Zec 9:9

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Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee:
he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass,
and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

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Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

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do you see a problem here? i do. jesus rides into town on TWO animals, both an ass and a colt. in zachariah, it's standard hebrew parallelism. in matthew, it's clearly two animals. matthew is either trying to be funny at jesus's expense, or he misunderstood something.

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אָרַח

luke's is FIFTEEN GENERATIONS longer. matthew sacrifices a few names to get things to work out in some nice number. it's missing four generations when compared to chronicles.loads and loads of problems here. perhaps you can answer this for me, then, because i've been wondering it. traditionally, the messiah is to come from the line of david, right? the royal line? doesn't that have to go through the cursed line? (this seems to be the position of matthew, anyways).

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אָרַח

or, as pd suggested a while back, matthew is actually a jewish text that's meant to be satire, taking things ridiculously out of context and purposefully "misunderstanding" certain things for humor's sake.luke simply collected gospels of the time and compiled -- this might have included matthews. out of curiosity, can you provide the standard jewish requirments for being "the" messiah, and where they come from (biblically or otherwise)?

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אָרַח

uh, no. i think he's jewish. as in, by birth.

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אָרַח

yes, that is true. but he's still jewish -- how faithful someone is is not relevant to the debate. any debate, ever.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 01-07-2006 09:20 PM

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אָרַח

i'm also pretty sure i answered it pretty thoroughly (with references) in my first post.

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אָרַח

is your question regarding where the line picks up? ie: jeconiah's brother (if he had one), uncle, etc? and whether it goes all the way back to solomon, or if it's just ANY son of solomon?i'm kind of curious, myself.

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אָרַח

warning -- this post spiraled out of control when one minor problem led to several major ones. i think i got most of them sorted out, but without re-reading kings and chronicles and jeremiah, i can't be sure i'm right here. yes, that's a fair question i think. i will address this point in a round-about kind of way, because it's how i came to it, but the basis is pretty simple. there was indeed a rightful king after jehoiakim's curse was fulfilled. and matthew leaves out a few (four, if memory serves), one of whom is jehoiakim the cursed king. please note what matthew says: "And Josias begat Jechonias" (verse 11).how does matthew solve the problem? he leaves out jehoiakim. but i do think it is primarily intended to be a kingly line, at least far more so than luke's -- it's just a bad "fix." well, here's the list:

1. abraham (patriarch)
2. isaac (pat.)
3. jacob (pat.)
4. judah (pat.)
5. perez
6. hezron
7. aram
8. aminadab
9. nahshon
10. salmon
11. boaz
12. obed
13. jesse
14. david (king)
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15. solomon (king)
16. rehoboam (king)
17. abijah (king)
18. asa (king)
19. jehoshaphat (king)
20. joram (king)
21. uziah (king)
22. jotham (king)
23. ahaz (king)
24. hezekiah (king)
25. manasseh (king)
26. amon (king)
27. josiah (king)
28. jeconiah (king?)
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29. shealtiel
30. zerubabel
31. adihud
32. eliakim
33. azor
34. zadok
35. achim
36. eliud
37. eleazar
38. matthan
39. jacob
40. joseph
41. jesus

i count 41 generations. did i miss one? this page also has 41, not the 42 you claim. this makes them impossible to divide in groups of 14. as you can see, there are 15 kings -- so i take it you choose to make the first 13 instead of the last, pushing jeconiah off the list?perhaps we can trace the problem back to the original curse:

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Jer 36:29-30

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And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast? Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

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Jer 29:2 (After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem

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you may notice that verse number precedes the curse. i'm not sure if that means anything. jeremiah might be out of order. there's a bit about zedekiah between the two verses.

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Est 2:6 Who had been carried away from Jerusalem with the captivity which had been carried away with Jeconiah king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away.

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however, jehoiakim's son did reign as king. "jeconiah" is jeremiah and esther's name for jehoiachin. what's even more important to note is that he was a legitimate king.

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2Ch 36:8 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they [are] written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

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jehoiachin/jeconiah was the second last king of judah to reign in jerusalem. nebuchadnezzar removed him from the throne after only 3 months. he was only 18 (8?) years old at the time:

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2Ki 24:8 Jehoiachin [was] eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name [was] Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

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but there's another problem: jeremiah goes from jehoiakim to zedekiah, and explicitly skips jeconiah:

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Jer 37:1 And king Zedekiah the son of Josiah reigned instead of Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, whom Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah.

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maybe this is another problem about being out of order. maybe the position fits kings and chronicles. jehoiakim dies (at the hands of his own people to appease nebuchadnezzar), and his son jeconiah takes the thrown, but is taken into exile and deposed by nebuchadnezzar. then jeconiah is overthrown too, and zedekiah replaces him. jeremiah might be leaving out jeconiah because the bit that made zedekiah hier was kind of strange:

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2Ch 36:9 Jehoiachin [was] eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD.

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2Ch 36:10 And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

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but that's not true -- i just quoted that verse. he was born in judah, and reigned on the throne in jerusalem for 3 months and 10 days. he was not born in captivity. his father made judah a tributary of the babylonian empire, but captivity does not begin until the last king of judah (zedekiah) is dethroned. maybe the "brothers" bit refering to 2chr 36:10, which i quoted above. it calls zedekiah his father's brother, which is only a slight problem if you're skipping a generation anyways.

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1Ch 3:15 And the sons of Josiah [were], the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.

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brothers are mentioned because the line of kings backtracks twice to maintain it's unbroken nature. when josiah dies, jehoahaz takes the throne. but he's taken off to egypt, so jehoiakim his brother takes the throne. when he dies, jeconiah his son takes the trone -- but when he's carried off, the next son of josiah takes his place. so maybe there's your answer -- maybe the line of kings has to read:

• josiah
• zedekiah
  ...
• jesus

and not

• josiah
• (jehoiakim)
• jeconiah
  ...
• jesus

curiously, matthew leaves out jehoahaz too -- why leave out the brother, but not go through the father's brother like the line of kings actually went through? the presence of jeconiah is incredibly conspicuous. so he was a king, just not the RIGHT king. the problem is that matthew goes down the wrong fork in the road.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 01-12-2006 09:54 PM

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אָרַח

well, that's one more problem, not one less. david is one person, not two, and there are 41 generations, not 42. but even still, the net effect is the same as my guess that you were making the first one 13. matthew then counts 14 kings of judah (there were at lest 18 in the line of descent), and pushes jeconiah off the end. this is simply because he was considered king while in exile -- it doesn't mean he wasn't king.and it's still not really all that important if josiah is considered the last rightful king of judah (which matthew seems to be doing, since he leaves out jehoiakim). whether or not he was king, it's still the wrong line. it should go through zedekiah, i believe.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 01-12-2006 10:09 PM

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אָרַח

well, this is just one more case of the deceptive and sneaky god of the christians.know what "liar" is in greek? i'll give you a hint, it's not theos.

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אָרַח