An amazing story

Please abstract the message in your own words instead of requiring us to read a whole article blind. Thank you.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 04:04 PM

It's too long to read in one sitting. I'm up to the point where she's started reading the atheists and getting cracks in her belief. I'll probably finish it later, but I'm sure I can assume that she started raising questions her family couldn't answer and eventually lost her faith altogether, right? And they get very upset and, what, excommunicate her or something?Just some observations:Churches should be sure their youth are taught the worldly point of view as thoroughly as the gospel, and that all the usual questions are hashed out as part of their growth in the faith. This includes all the atheist arguments, knowledge of all the other religions, and of course thorough immersion in the ToE. If some fall away, well, nobody ever said everybody would be saved, and meanwhile it should be effective inoculation against the familiar shock encounter young naive evangelicals so often experience out in the world.How sad to see her finding William James and Bertrand Russell convincing. I laughed at them when friends had me read them during the period I was becoming a believer. My friends were SO worried I might become one of those dreaded fundamentalists during that period of fervent searching. But everything they gave me to read just was NOT what I was looking for. I knew God was real and I wanted to know Him and all that stuff was just the vaporings of intellectual types, which I was good enough at myself and thoroughly sick of. I'd had a lifetime of that kind of thinking already and found it shallow and stupid now that God was a reality to me. But I read those two books she read, and Evelyn Underwood's "Mysticism" and Hans Jonas' "Gnosticism" and lots of similar anti-religious and quasi-religious stuff on my own besides what they pressed upon me. James and Underwood led me to Theresa of Avila, though, and that was the start of the path to Christ.So I just think it's sad that evangelicals set up their children for this kind of fall by not exposing them to opposing views. I hope we're getting smarter. If she belongs to the Lord she'll eventually find her way back to Him.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 05:11 PM

It isn't so much accurate rebuttals I think the church needs to teach as simply awareness of the basic positions. Not everyone has the intellectual talents or interests required for arguing the issues, it's just that they shouldn't be in the position of hearing it all for the first time from unbelievers. That's deadly.What most protects a believer is personal experience with Christ though. It is possible to be a genuine Christian and yet too much on the level of head knowledge, which may have been the case with this girl. It is hard to know. But experience is crucial. Personal experience of the Biblical "Taste and see that the Lord is good" will get you through all kinds of challenges. Another one that's been my motto from early on is "Gustato spiritu desipit omnis caro" which if I got it right is Latin for "A taste of the spirit makes insipid everything carnal." (Unfortunately, the carnal does have a way of reinsinuating itself into the life if you don't watch it, since the fallen nature dies hard, but the statement is true nevertheless.)This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:49 PM

Yes, that was why I was attracted to the charismatic movement too. But there are hazards on every side and on that side there is the hazard of counterfeit experiences, that I personally saw too much of, and the kind of experience I'm talking about comes out of that relationship with Christ and the gifts aren't necessary to that.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:48 PM

Didn't mean to slight the book learning, which I consider very important, merely to say that it can masquerade for faith in the absence of saving personal experience.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:47 PM

Not "mine" I'm sure. Part of my recommendation is that we get better at it. No, that's what goes on now. That's why I emphasized how thoroughly I'd like to see the case presented. This is exactly what my recommendation is aimed to cure, Crash. Seems to me I was pretty clear about it. I'll risk it.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 06:46 PM

Who's "bashing?"That thing is SO long. I haven't come to the part about her grandparents yet. She's struggling with her husband and having more doubts. It started to read like a novel a while back. Besides its length, it is written in a "literary" way, as if she began to imagine it for publication. Or "she" is a fiction even -- but I admit that suspicion is pretty far out. And there are different editors I've noticed, as their names appear at the bottom of various frames. What does that mean? Why should anyone get to edit it other than the author?So again, although I have no particular reason to doubt its authenticity, it's begun to sound like no more than a particularly shrewd and well-crafted presentation of the whole attack on the Bible that we get here at EvC all the time. I find her doubts and questions puerile and carnal {abe: "carnal" merely means of the flesh or fallen nature as opposed to the spirit, by the way}, as I always find those questions. A believer doesn't have a problem answering those questions, only unbelievers do. {OK this is an exaggeration, it's not that the answers are always available, it's more about attitude.}What am I to do with this story? I don't know. But I haven't finished it yet. Maybe by the time I get to the end of it, and pray about it, I'll have a better idea.Cheers.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 11:23 PM

The editors' names are different from the poster's name on at least two frames.OK, I'll take your word for it that it's real.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 11:10 PM

I guess that's the official position then? It's just someone's life story, someone's personal "choices." That's safe isn't it? Avoids messy questions about truth, who may possess it and who not etc.There's a lot of bashing that does go on about people's beliefs, here at EvC and everywhere. But sometimes there is a fine line between "bashing" and critical analysis, and when someone admonishes against "bashing each other's beliefs," as you did in your previous post, I know I'm being told I'm not to argue religious questions at all, certainly not suggest anyone's are false, on pain of being accused of violating The Multiculturalist Credo (and far worse offenses sometimes). Unless of course I have Scientific evidence -- that may count, depending on the circumstances.Just thought I'd mention it, in case it becomes relevant. You never know.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:05 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:06 AM

No. Because you misread me. Finding "her" doubts puerile and carnal does not mean all doubts are verboten. But for a believer they don't amount a doubt of the faith itself.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:27 AM

I'm not for bashing. I was questioning the definition.

Thanks for explaining the multiple editors.

Ouch. I just got to the end of ...PAGE ONE!!!??????That was struggle enough, but three more?Sorry, I won't be back to this until later. I'm reading carefully, in spare time, don't want to miss anything.Mini Ditka, by the way, would you consider changing the title of this thread? Maybe Deconversion Story? Something to identify it better.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 11:26 AM

At the point I stopped reading I've concluded the opposite, but who knows, by the end I may have a different impression. If there's a religious temperament, I'm not it. I was always a cynic, always making sardonic wisecracks, thought all the New Age religiosity so many of my friends got into in the 60s and 70s was the end of all reason and civilization itself. (Still think that though).This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 01:00 PM

I think she felt the extended soul-searching report was necessary to convince us of her sincerity. That could get tedious. But I feel obliged to be sure I don't miss something.Since I usually appreciate your observations, I'll be interested to see if I agree about the artificial ending.