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Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: An amazing story | |||||||||||||||||||||||
SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5864 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Looking back at it.... It is rather long. I become engrossed in it when I couldn't sleep one night so it didn't seem so long to me...
However, looking back now I understand your complaints!
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
And there are different editors I've noticed, as their names appear at the bottom of various frames. What does that mean? Why should anyone get to edit it other than the author?
That's because all of Infidels moved to a new format a year or so back, and anything you pull up from the pre-move archives has bunches of odd formatting. Edits were presumably only for those, not for content. She's still around the boards over there, and I see no reason at all to doubt here story. This message has been edited by Coragyps, 01-04-2006 10:17 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thanks for explaining the multiple editors.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ouch. I just got to the end of ...
PAGE ONE!!!?????? That was struggle enough, but three more? Sorry, I won't be back to this until later. I'm reading carefully, in spare time, don't want to miss anything. Mini Ditka, by the way, would you consider changing the title of this thread? Maybe Deconversion Story? Something to identify it better. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 11:26 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Somehow I get the feeling that a few years from now she will return to religion.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a religious temperament.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Somehow I get the feeling that a few years from now she will return to religion. At the point I stopped reading I've concluded the opposite, but who knows, by the end I may have a different impression.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a religious temperament. If there's a religious temperament, I'm not it. I was always a cynic, always making sardonic wisecracks, thought all the New Age religiosity so many of my friends got into in the 60s and 70s was the end of all reason and civilization itself. (Still think that though). This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 01:00 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
At the point I stopped reading I've concluded the opposite, but who knows, by the end I may have a different impression. Well, I skipped a lot. After awhile all her soul-searching began to irritate me. I'm not the right audience for this type of thing. The ending seemed rather strained to me--artificial.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think she felt the extended soul-searching report was necessary to convince us of her sincerity. That could get tedious. But I feel obliged to be sure I don't miss something.
Since I usually appreciate your observations, I'll be interested to see if I agree about the artificial ending.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I think she felt the extended soul-searching report was necessary to convince us of her sincerity.
You have to look at the context, the thesis that "once saved, always saved", which I think is from Calvin.The larger topic that inspired this is the hotly debated question of whether (or not) one who has genuinely been "saved" (in the Christian faith) can ever then "fall away". She is documenting that she was once genuinely saved.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
She is documenting that she was once genuinely saved. I agree that's what she's doing. Nevertheless reasonable questions can be raised about that.
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
Don't apologize, Min. I found the story very interesting and a pretty good read, though I did skip a few parts just to get to the end a little faster since I was pressed for time.
I found that many of her questions/problems concerning the Bible were the exact same ones I had. The main difference being I wasn't as infused with Christianity as she was so leaving it behind was much easier and far less traumatic for me. Thanks for the link.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yes. perseverance of the saints is a calvinist principle based on several verses. here's a listing of it. if you go to the site, the linked footnotes hold the verses relevant.
westminster confession of faith
Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1] II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6] III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
...which was difficult because it got to be a lot of proselytizing eventually, along the lines encountered so frequently here at EvC. The usual Bible-debunking stuff.
Was she ever saved? The Calvinist view would say no, but she was convincing about her immersion in all the attitudes of that kind of church. But then she is so quickly persuaded by the first encounter she has with the usual kinds of questions and complaints against Christian doctrine that I have to suspect her belief was likely just a well-practiced habit and not a real faith. She expresses guilt but not loss, alienation from the people in the church, but no pangs about losing God. That struck me too. My first take on this thread, that churches should be more alert to the kinds of indoctrination their children will encounter in the world, and be sure they know about it, still seems important, but somehow less important. That's because the story brought home to me in the end how entirely supernatural a thing faith is, and how futile debate and efforts to persuade are, if not initiated by God's Spirit. I know that of course already, but I needed to see it as convincingly laid out as she laid it out. What else? Oh, she refers to some things she says she was taught, apparently without knowing those things derive from the Bible, at one point quotes for instance a Christian song about "returning to first love" without any apparent awareness that that is an admonition of Christ to the churches in the Book of Revelation. Wonder in the end how much of the Bible she ever actually read herself. RR said he thought the ending was "artificial." You mean her little Parable of the Forest? I didn't read it carefully because I figured her point was already obvious, but I didn't see any of it as artificial myself. And no, I don't think she'll ever go back. She's burned her bridges spiritually speaking. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-05-2006 03:02 AM
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
I knew God was real and I wanted to know Him Then you had faith before you had faith?
Theresa of Avila, though, and that was the start of the path to Christ. Were you also pierced by the love of god as she was? spelling This message has been edited by ts, 01-05-2006 10:37 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'll answer your questions but this is off topic for this thread so it shouldn't go any farther.
I knew God was real and I wanted to know Him
quote: No I can't say I had faith at that point, I merely believed that God was real, because of what some Hindu teachers wrote about experiencing God. I didn't know much about Christianity at the time, just bits and pieces I remembered from childhood.
Theresa of Avila, though, and that was the start of the path to Christ.
quote: She was, wasn't she? No, but what I loved about her books was her love of God. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-05-2006 12:14 PM
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