good to see so many converted former christians dropping dead on the spot.
or are they dying slowly like adam did?This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-04-2006 12:09 AM

my very favourite saying. if you really believed, you wouldn't have doubts. amazing. do you really hold this stance?

maybe not to you. what about those believers who are doubting the faith?This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-04-2006 12:35 AM

yes. perseverance of the saints is a calvinist principle based on several verses. here's a listing of it. if you go to the site, the linked footnotes hold the verses relevant.westminster confession of faith

you are mistaken. calvinists are quite convinced of the ability of believers to fall away. looks like you need to read your doctrine a little harder. just in case you missed that.
how long exactly have you been a calvinist that you haven't read the book on it?This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-05-2006 12:51 PM

state of grace being salvation. they cannot lose their salvation though they turn away. the idea is that god has a 'life-grip' on them.no really. how old are you and how long have you been a christian and what type of church do you go to and how long have you studied thick doctrine?i'm really genuinely curious.

that would be what i said.but what i'm suggesting is that loss of faith does not equate loss of salvation.

why would a calvinist say she wasn't saved? a calvinist would say she it is possible for one to be saved and then sin. so why do you demans she wasn't saved?i was taught to treat those worthy of respect with respect. you play word games and lie about what you said. that is not deserving of respect. further, you call me names when you know nothing about me. this also suggests you are not worthy of respect. there are lots of religious people i respect. you are not one of them.

Off Topic Personal Attack on another member marked out.

i'm not being rude, i'm simply asking you a few direct questions.
how old are you.
how long have you been a christian.
what type of church do you go to.
how long have you deeply studied calvinist doctrine.i cannot continue a discussion with you until i understand how you think. this is the specific necessity of the third question. the other three are just what i've been wondering for a long time... they will, no doubt, assist me in better dealing with you, though.This message has been edited by AdminJar, 01-05-2006 12:40 PM

no. a true calvinist would say that she could be saved and still be an atheist. a true calvanist would say she has fallen away and needs church discipline to see the error of her ways. but a true calvanist would not make a judgement on her actual state of salvation because calvinists know that salvation is a matter between god and an individual... and not a matter for the church-or our dear friend faith-to decide.i've been studying deep calvinist doctrine for 15 years. i started going to adult bible study with my parents when i was 7. i have discussed these things with church elders.this is why i asked faith what kind of church she goes to. a calvinist is a follower of reformed doctrine which i've been part of my entire life. i've always asked big, hard questions.the thing is you're both misunderstanding perseverence of the saints. it means you're always saved. it doesn't mean you're always good or always in church or always singing or always praying or even always a believer.
god made a promise that whoever believed in his son WOULD NOT DIE BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. he sealed it with his son's blood. man didn't kill jesus; GOD'S WILL FOR SALVATION KILLED JESUS. like abraham almost slit his son's throat to bleed him dry for sacrifice to god, so too god bled jesus for us on the cross. that's the deal. sorry it's graphic, but that's the nature of blood sacrifice. and who is god? GOD IS KEPT PROMISES. man will fall but god keeps his promises. once you have believed, truly believed, god keeps his promise and clenses your eternal soul with his son's blood spilled out without measure or ceasing. we are commanded to respond thus and we are compelled to respond thus. but just because we may fail and fall and turn away, does not release god from his blood covenant and allow him to 'un-wash' us. this is a very important and very basic understanding of who god is. HE KEEPS PROMISES. if the blood is not sufficient for all and sufficient for all sin-even the sin of turning away and denying the lord-then the blood is not sufficient and the covenant a sham. just like some can't believe in god if he didn't create the world in 7 days, i can't believe god if he lies about his promises and has an insufficient sacrifice.and that is what a calvinist believes.

likely behavior means nothing. when you name a doctrine, the reasonable assumption is that you are using the doctrine as your measure.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:how dare you proclaim her eternal soul?
you have done this repeatedly, foundlessly. the only thing in the bible about knowing christians is about their fruit.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.and the fruits follow thusGal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.she demonstrated the ones you question unfailingly until her transition. the rest, you have no room to speculate on. but if the only way to know a christian is by fruit, then you must admitt, she met the criteria.
but really. how dare anyone usurp the sole right of god to select whom his blood shall cleanse? how is that demonstrating humility? how is that demonstrating trust that god knows what he's doing. it's very unsettling to me that you take this position as god's salvation judge. really.

as the current subject of the shunning of a calvary chapel member...my former friend's pastor has preached many times on the importance of not cutting people out of your life and how jesus spent time with nasty, awful people and that blocking out people because you think they're bad is wrong... and every time she ignores him.
i think it's a spiritually weak church full of young christians leading other young christians. the bible teaches us to move past the milk to meat. to love god as a trusted father and not as a mother on whom we depend for our very life. i think because of the leadership of young christians, it is prone to failings like cultish behaviors and such. but i do not think it is a necessary result... only a common one.no. he obviously had other priorities than his wife. but people have to understand where their priorities are. it sucks, but people change. yes he probably should have been more flexible... but that would have required a different theology. that's life. that's kind of the deal she signed on for. it was very much her own spiritual journey.
jesus said we must take up our cross and leave our families to serve him. now... perhaps she's an atheist now, but that's all she did. the same thing i'd expect of someone who became a new christian and was turned away by an atheist spouse. you have to hold to your convictions sometimes. in the end, you only really have yourself. people will always fail you.

i see it as a very serious theological issue. maybe it needs a new thread... it's not just directed at faith, but all people who decide 'oh this is what my special group is and if you don't agree with me, then you aren't part of my group immaterial of what the group founder said.' she just happens to be the person who said it most recently. i am arguing the position and i'm even dealing with it by their definitions.