Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 16 of 184 (275566)
01-04-2006 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
01-04-2006 12:01 AM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Yeah, I know some people use Zechariah as a messianic prophecy refering to Jesus, but if you read on it becomes pretty clear that it does not refer to Jesus, but to a coming warlord.
The Gospel of Matthew uses Zechariah as a messianic prophecy. If you don't believe the Gospel of Matthew you miss the word of God.
Its not just "some people" but one of the Apostles and one of the 12 disciples of Jesus who wrote a gospel.
As for those portions which have not yet been fulfilled, they remain to be in the future.
When Joseph had a dream of his father, mother, and eleven brothers doing homage to him, his brothers hated him for it. They cast him into a pit for three days. And they sold him into slavery. Many years latter God turned their very hatred of Joseph into a catalyst to fulfill the very dream that Joseph had. He did become a ruler in Egypt and they did eventually come down from the famine and bow themselves down to the very one they dispised and rejected.
Joseph is a sure type of Christ. Israel rejected Him for His teachings. But they will come to Him under the providence and soveriegnty of God. They will bow to the King that they despised even as Joseph's brothers eventually bowed to the brother that they rejected.
At the time of Christ's second coming He will fight furiously for Israel. And many faithful Christians will at that time be fighting with Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 01-04-2006 12:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2006 1:04 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-04-2006 1:11 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 23 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 9:41 AM jaywill has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 17 of 184 (275588)
01-04-2006 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
01-03-2006 10:58 PM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Jesus was a descendent of David. He was just a descendent of David through Mary.
that's a later interpretation of luke's genealogy; i've heard it before.
He was not a descendent of David through Solomon and Jeconiah via Joseph.
the PROBLEM is that in order to be KING (and messiah in the jewish sense) he had to be of david's royal lineage, not just related.
anyways, god only says he'll punish the sins of the father to the fourth generation:
quote:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
i should also like to point out that jehoiakim's son and grandson do reign -- just in captivity. i think it would suffice to say that the curse is over when captivity ends. sound fair?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 10:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 184 (275590)
01-04-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jaywill
01-04-2006 12:14 AM


matthew and zachariah
quote:
Zec 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion;
shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee:
he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass,
and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
quote:
Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
do you see a problem here? i do. jesus rides into town on TWO animals, both an ass and a colt. in zachariah, it's standard hebrew parallelism. in matthew, it's clearly two animals. matthew is either trying to be funny at jesus's expense, or he misunderstood something.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 12:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 184 (275593)
01-04-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jaywill
01-04-2006 12:14 AM


Re: more on the problem at hand
If you don't believe the Gospel of Matthew you miss the word of God.
We'regetting far afield here. But I would like to raise two points. On is that the quotation in Matthew is obviously either inserted in order to build a connection, or is simply completely misunderstood. In Zechariah, you find examples of classic Hebrew poetry, repeating and contrasting something for emphasis.
But that's not what is found in Matthew. In Matthew we see the phrase, "Get them" That is not repetition, that's two critters.
The second thing is to say that if you don't believe the Gospel of Matthew you miss the word of God. Sorry, but I do believe the Gospel of Matthew, that says everyone is saved, that salvation is freely given to all, and that it will mostly be Christians that are designated as the Goats. If you don't believe that, then you miss the Word of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 12:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 184 (275652)
01-04-2006 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
01-03-2006 10:58 PM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Jesus was a descendent of David. He was just a descendent of David through Mary.
There are two terminal flaws in this claim. Firstly, blood doesn't pass through a female line, and secondly (if we ignore the first flaw), Mary isn't even in the messianic bloodline.
The establishment of the Davidic bloodline is outlined in 2 Samuel 7:4-16:
That night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying: "Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt to this day. I have been moving from place to place with a tent as my dwelling.
Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their rulers whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, "Why have you not built me a house of cedar?" '
"Now then, tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD Almighty says: I took you from the pasture and from following the flock to be ruler over my people Israel. I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men of the earth. And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies.
" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "
We can see that God has promised that David's dynasty will reign forever, and that it HAS to be a direct blood descendant of David's who 'will come from his body'. This is reinforced throughout the Old Testament, for example Psalm 132:11-12:
The LORD swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: "One of your own descendants I will place on your throne if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne for ever and ever.
The Old Testament clearly states that the messiah will be a direct descendant of David's, and not an adopted son as many Christians mistakenly claim. Adopting someone does not make them of the same blood and it actually contradicts God's promise to David. God states that the messiah will come from David's own body and as Jesus did not have an earthly father, it is impossible for him to be the messiah. Think about it. By claiming that someone adopted by a descendant of David makes them a messianic candidate negates God's promise that it would be a direct descendant. People who want adopted children to be possible messiahs have actually opened up the possibility that anyone at all could be the messiah, and directly contradict God's word.
With the bloodline through Joseph nullified, the only other possibility that Jesus is descended from David would be through his mother Mary. Again, this is fraught with errors.
It is claimed that Mary's genealogy is outlined in Luke chapter three. However, the New Testament never claims that this is Mary's genealogy, it is quite clearly a different genealogy of Joseph. Look at the beginning of the text:
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli
The text is explicitly claiming that Joseph was the son of Heli, and not his son in law as many people claim.
How on earth can a genealogy of a man be taken through his father in law, unless you marry your sister, which would make your father in law your father as well?
There is no genealogy in the entire Bible, New and Old Testaments, that trace a man's genealogy through his father in law, and this genealogy is no different.
But, Christians still insist that it is Mary's linage that is in Luke, making her a descendant of David and hence giving Jesus a direct link, even though the New Testament never claims that Mary is the daughter of Heli.
The author's of the New Testament never give us any reason to believe that Mary was descended from David, despite some obvious places where one would expect this information to be mentioned. For example, in Luke 1:26-27
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
It is Joseph's Davidic descent that is mentioned here and not Mary's. Why wouldn't this verse emphasise that Mary was also descended from David? Why not say that Gabriel was 'sent to a virgin, a descendant of David' if her bloodline was to be of any use?
A cold hard fact is that Mary is never referred to anywhere in the New Testament as a descendant of David, while every possible reference to David is through Joseph.
Another example of this is in Luke 2:4-5:
So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.
They went to Bethlehem because HE belonged to the house and line of David not because THEY belonged to the house and line of David!
But still Christians maintain that this is Mary's genealogy.
If we ignore all the evidence and accept that this is Mary's genealogy, then it actually does no good anyway, as Davidic descent passed through David's son Solomon and not Nathan as hoped for by so many.
God makes it clear that it is Solomon's line that will have the promise of eternal kingship.
2 Samuel 7:13
He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
Read in context, this reference clearly informs us that it is relating to one person. He will build a house, his kingdom forever. The 'house for my name' is the Temple built by Solomon, and it is Solomon's kingdom that will be established forever. It doesn't mention that 'they will build a house, or I will establish 'their' kingdom forever, it is referring to a single person, and that person is Solomon. So, Nathan's linage is irrelevant as it is not included in God's promise to David.
That it is Solomon who is chosen by God is supported by 1 Chronicles 29:1:
Then King David said to the whole assembly: "My son Solomon, the one whom God has chosen, is young and inexperienced The task is great, because this palatial structure is not for man but for the LORD God.
Solomon was chosen to 'build a house for God's name' not Nathan, and it is through the bloodline of builder of the Temple that the promise was made.
There is no way to link Jesus to David, the author of Matthew's gospel effectively killed that off with his misunderstanding of Isaiah 7:14.
Put simply, Jesus was no messiah, and his complete failure to fulfill any messianic prophecy just adds support.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 10:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 21 of 184 (275664)
01-04-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
01-03-2006 10:58 PM


Re: more on the problem at hand
The problem with trying to claim Mary's lineage for Jesus to make him the messiah that way is twofold.
The first one is that BOTH matthew and Luke specificallly mention Joseph. The second one, according to Jewish expections about the Messiah, and the Jewish laws of Kingly and Priestly inheritance, the lineage has to go through the male line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 10:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 22 of 184 (275684)
01-04-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jaywill
01-03-2006 11:51 PM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Except, the Jews were looking for the an earthy king to drive out the invaders.
Messiah is a term meaning "Annointed one", and is specificaly refering to a King of Israel. There were two annointed ones in Jewish society.
One was the King. The other was the High Priest of the temple. The Jews during that time period were waiting for a King of their own, not a puppet installed by the Romans, to get the Romans out of Juddah, and lead Juddah to greatness.
The change about the expectations of wht the messiah was goign to be happened when Gentiles came in, and after the destruction of the temple.
So, the belief you mentioned might be true from a Christian perspective, but it was not true for the Jews of the first half of the first century in Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 11:51 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 23 of 184 (275689)
01-04-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jaywill
01-04-2006 12:14 AM


Re: more on the problem at hand
Yes, matthew did comb the Tankah for all sorts of out of context phrases to make it look like a prophecy. He also had the most silly story about Jesus ridding a donkey and a horse at the SAME TIME, as well as dead people walking around Jerusalum.
Your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 12:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 24 of 184 (275790)
01-04-2006 2:55 PM


Christ is refered to as the Son of David many times in the New Testament. The claim is not restricted to the geneology.
Now if a person wants to, based on JUST and EXCLUSIVELY, the information given in the Matthew and Luke geneologies raise objections they can find reasons to do so.
The reason for this is that we just do not have enough information in the geneologies to erase all possible objections that could be imagined.

Everything past this point is Off Topic. Please do not resond to any of the contents of this message past this point!

Anybody like French Vanilla Yogurt? lol
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 02:55 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 02:57 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 02:59 PM
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 01-04-2006 03:00 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 05:17 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 4:21 PM jaywill has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 25 of 184 (275809)
01-04-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jaywill
01-04-2006 2:55 PM


And exactly where is Jesus refered to as 'The son of david' in the New testament?
And how does that matter at all when it comes to the objections that were raised about the geneologies of Jesus as presented by Matthew and Luke, and how does that relate to the fact that the 1st century Jews were looking for a direct male decendant by blood (unbroken line) from
David?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 2:55 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 4:38 PM ramoss has not replied
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 4:51 PM ramoss has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 26 of 184 (275817)
01-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
01-04-2006 4:21 PM


The blindman at Jericho - Mt 9:27; Mr 10:47
The Canaanite Woman - Mt 15:22
The questioning crowd - Mt 12:23
The massive crowd at the Triumphal Entry - Mt 21:15
Apostle Peter - Acts 2.25ff
Apostle Paul - Acts 13.22ff; Romans 1.3; 2 Tim 2.8
Apostle John - Revelation 5:5; 22.16

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 4:21 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 01-05-2006 9:21 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 27 of 184 (275826)
01-04-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ramoss
01-04-2006 4:21 PM


And how does that matter at all when it comes to the objections that were raised about the geneologies of Jesus as presented by Matthew and Luke, and how does that relate to the fact that the 1st century Jews were looking for a direct male decendant by blood (unbroken line) from David?
Where in the New Testament do the enemies of Christ and His claims raise the issue of his Davidic blood line?
What documentation do you have that such an issue was raised before the first several centries of the Christian Era?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 04:51 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 05:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 4:21 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 5:45 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 29 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 5:53 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 28 of 184 (275846)
01-04-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jaywill
01-04-2006 4:51 PM


quote:
Where in the New Testament do the enemies of Christ and His claims raise the issue of his Davidic blood line?
It was not in the interest of the Christians to bring that up.. and it entirely irrelavent to the issue at hand. Mind you it is being brought up because of the descrepancies between Matthew and Luke,and the Jewish law and culture, but that is besides the point. However, you made a speccific claim. That claim is
quote:
Christ is refered to as the Son of David many times in the New Testament. The claim is not restricted to the geneology.
I am asking you to back up that claim. Chapter and verse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 4:51 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 6:41 PM ramoss has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 29 of 184 (275850)
01-04-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jaywill
01-04-2006 4:51 PM


How ever said that it was? You mean we can not use our OWN intelligence to see descrepancies that have to be explained away , and we can't take a look at those explainations, and see if it makes sense in the historical context of the Jewish culture at the time.
As for your references about where Jesus was called the 'Son of David'.. I will review.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2006 4:51 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 30 of 184 (275865)
01-04-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ramoss
01-04-2006 5:45 PM


It was not in the interest of the Christians to bring that up.. and it entirely irrelavent to the issue at hand. Mind you it is being brought up because of the descrepancies between Matthew and Luke,and the Jewish law and culture, but that is besides the point. However, you made a speccific claim. That claim is
It was no less contraversial than any number of other objections which they recorded as being reasons for Christ's rejection.
They didn't hide that He was accused of blasphamy.
They didn't hide that He was accused of being demon possessed.
They didn't hide that He was accused of being a friend of harlots and tax collectors.
They didn't hide that He broke the Sabbath.
They didn't hide that He was not a educated priest, preached outside of Judea, was raised in Nazareth, was not really preceeded by Elijah the prophet,
They didn't hide that He cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"
If the gospel writers wanted to conceal certain contraversial issues they could well have eliminated those things from the gospels too. So why should I accept your suspicion of impure motives?
The issue you raise is your issue. It was not an issue raised by the Jews contemporary to Jesus. They had the public records there and could easily check them.
I think you have come up with a relatively recent complaint and trying to make it appear as one that the first century Jews raised.
Concerning Christ being called Son of David elsewhere in the NT:
I am asking you to back up that claim. Chapter and verse.
Here it is again:
in Zechariah's Song - Luke 1:69
The blindman at Jericho - Mt 9:27; Mr 10:47
The Canaanite Woman (a foreigner!) - Mt 15:22
The questioning crowd in Mt 12:23
The massive crowd at the Triumphal Entry - Mt 21:15
Apostle Peter - Acts 2.25ff
Apostle Paul - Acts 13.22ff; Romans 1.3; 2 Tim 2.8
Apostle John - Revelation 5:5; 22.16
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 06:42 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 06:43 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 06:44 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-04-2006 06:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 5:45 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024