Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's

Brian, The burden is on you to support your claim that because Jesus was not descendent from Solomon, He cannot be the Christ. Should I expect an antichrist to have another reaction to being exposed?

Ramoss,The Old Testament did not say that Christ would be Solomon’s descendent. It did prophesy repeatedly that Christ would be a descendent of David (2 Samuel. 7:13-14; Jer. 23:5) You did not point out the contradiction between 1 Chron, 22:9 and Romans 1:1-4.As far as me suposedly saying “God can do anything he wants” -
I think you may be refering to this which I wrote: That is a little different from saying “God can do anything he wants”I don’t think that what you attribute to me as saying is an accurate representation. I said 600 wives and three hundred concubines. The Bible says:”And he had seven hundred princess wives and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away.

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And when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect toward Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father.

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And Solomon went after Ashotoreth the goddess of the Sodonians and after Milcom the detestable thing of the Ammonites.

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And Solomon did what was evil in the sight of Jehovah and did not fully follow Jehovah as David his father had done.

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Then Solomon built a high place to Chemosh the detestable thing of Moab in the mountain that is before Jerusalem and to Molech the detestable thing of the chilren of Ammon.

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And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods. (1 Kings 11:3-8)Now the crucial point is what did this terrible apostasy do to Solomon’s descendents concering the kingdom and the kingship?”So Jehovah became angry with Solomon because his heart turned away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice.

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And who had commanded him concerning this very matter, not to go after other gods; but he did not keep that which Jehovah had commanded.

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And Jehovah said to Solomon, Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant.

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However I will not do it in your days, because of David your father, I will tear it out of your son’s hands.

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But I will not tear the whole kingdom away from you; I will give you one tribe to your son because of David My servant and because of Jerusalem, which I have chosen. (1 Kings 11:9-13)This discipline of God upon Solomon should be enough for us to realize that God might take another avenue to bring about the Messiah from the body of David not necessarily through the descendents of Solomon.I would like to see any verse in Scripture claiming for Solomon what was claimed for David as in 2 Samuel 7:12. Where is the verse claiming the same thing for Solomon concerning ”I will raise up your seed after you, which will come forth from your body” as is related to the Messiah? I don’t argue that Joseph came from the cut off line of Jeconiah.
But quoted above, 1 Kings 11:1-13 should signal that God counted Solomon’s line a failure, for the most part. And I see nothing Messianic associated exclusively with the Solomon fruit of Solomon’s body as I see it with David. He did leave Solomon and his son something of a remnant of the torn away kingdom. But God was not obligated to bring the Messiah through the line of Solomon.In His wisdom God had this option to obtain His desire:”And these were born to him [David] in Jerusalem: Shimea and Shobab and Nathan and Solomon: four, by Bathsua the daughter of Ammiel.” (1 Chron. 1:5)Psalm 89 shows God’s discipline, rejection, abhorance, profaning, and casting off of His covenant with the bad elements of the Davidic line. These words were written by Ethan the Ezrahite who was a wise man in the time of Solomon:”Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David. His seed shall endure forever, And his throne, like the sun before Me .

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But you have cast off and rejected; You have been angry with your anointed. You have abhorred the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown by casting it to the ground . You have made his brightness to cease and have cast down his throne to the ground . Where are Your former acts of loving kindness, O Lord, Which You swore to David in Your faithfulness?” (See Psalm 89)God does not have to fulfill His messianic promise through the bloodline of Solomon. So Christ can be the Anointed King descendent of David but not through the rejected line of Solomon and Jeconiah. And that is what happened.David was left with only a little stump. And out of this little stump of Joseph and Mary, the little Shoot of Jesus was born unto Mary the virgin, a descendent of David.In the days of Jeremiah the prophet records this word of God:”Indeed, days are coming, Declares Jehovah, When I will raise up to David a righteous Shoot;

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And He will reign as King and act prudently and will execute justice and righteousness in the land . ” (Jer. 23:5)Lastly, Jesus says that He is this Offspring of David in Revelation:”I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning star.” (Rev. 22:16)This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-08-2006 08:05 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-08-2006 08:18 PM

To the Moderator:I am going to write some things in this post which I suspect a moderator will say that it is “off the topic.” But these things are not off the topic IMO. They relate to God’s methods of fulfilling His prophetic words in surprising and unexpected ways in the Hebrew Bible. I feel that this is on the topic of so-called “bloodline” promises in this discussion.Ramoss, I don’t envy you the confict of claims that you as a Jew have to deal with. But if I were you and I was willing to follow the truth where ever it leads, I would also consider the history of the claim of these rabbis that you refer to.The reason for this is that after the beginning of the Christian church Judaism was strongly architectured and structured around one primary objective: that of rejection of Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. I think therefore that you should examine WHEN this Solomon bloodline compliant began to surface in history.At least you owe it to yourself to ask why such an objection did not arise at the very time of Jesus’ earthly ministry. Or was this a more recent revisionism raised by rabbis much latter? I am not sure what you meant by “a cursed line anyway.” It sounds like you are saying concerning my previous post that regardless of those things Jesus is from a cursed line anyway.The rabbis have had 2,000 some years to rationalize their opposition to Yeshua being the Messiah. They have had centries to hone their compliants against the messiahship of Jesus Christ.On one hand you say that the Messiah must be a descendent of Solomon. Then on the other hand you say that the line was cursed and cut off because of Jeconiah. That is why you quote to me Jeremiah 22:24.I view this as an act of desperation. If you can’t counter Jesus the Messiah through one method, you have a back up method. You think you can disqualify Him if He is a descendent of Solomon through Jeconiah. And a backup is that if He is not a descendent of Solomon He is disqualified.In a good sense God can be “sneaky.” He can fulfill His messianic promises to David without going through the line which some Jews would EXPECT Him to go through - Solomon’s.You should know by reading the Hebrew Bible that God can be “sneaky.” Don’t be surpised at my saying this. Wasn’t God being “sneaky” when He caused the offense Joseph’s dream to his 11 brothers to be the actual catalyst to fulfill that dream?(Moderators - please do not say this is “off the topic” because it is on the subject. It is on the subject of the track record of how God fulfills His prophetic promises in unexpected ways sometimes.)Joseph had a dream of his mother, father, and brothers bowing down to him. His brothers hated him already because he was daddy Jacob’s favorite son with the outstanding colorful garment. Even Jacob didn’t think too highly of the idea of Joseph dreaming that his father and mother would do homage to him. Because of the very dream they sold him into slavery. But God turned all these misfortunes into the very backround that caused Joseph to ascend to governmental authority in Egypt. Eventually they did come down and bow themselves to the ground before Joseph.This should show us that God. in His providence, His forknowledge, and His sovereignty, can accomplish His plans in a “sneaky” way. He can overcome the obstacles of man’s failures.This is still on the subject of the lineage of the Messiah. In the blessing of Jacob concerning his son Joseph, the prophet jacob said that:”Joseph is a fruitful bough, A fruitful bough by a fountain; His branches run over the wall. The archers bitterly attacked him, And shot at him; But his bow remained firm, And the arms of his hands were agile, By the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob - From there is the Shepherd, the stone of Israel . ” (Genesis 49:24).The fulfillment of the prophetic dream of Joseph was like a branch branching over the wall. The wall was the bitter opposition of his brothers and the lies and misfortunes that he underwent in Egypt. But God caused Joseph to branch over all of these obstacles.The same can be seen with other Old Testament partriarchs and saints. And the same is true of the Messiah. God branched over the walls of Solomon’s idolatry and Jeconiah’s curse. He fulfilled His promises to David in a “sneaky” way branching over the obstacles of man’s failures.Both Matthew and Luke teach that Joseph, the husband of Mary, was not the father of Jesus. Jesus was miraculously born of a virgin. That takes care of the Jeconiah “bloodline” problem. I believe the gospels.Secondly, Mary was a descendent of David. So God fulfilled His promise that the Shoot of David would spring up and be King of Israel.
But He is today the rejected King until His second coming. And this is prophecy also in the book of Zechariah for one.Now I will comment on your reference to 1 Chron. 22:9.Solomon is mentioned there by name as the one to build a splendid house for Jehovah of cedar wood.” . for Solomon will be his name . it is he who will build a house for My name . and I will establish the thone of his kingdom over Israel forever”We must realize that the house of cedar wood for God cannot be the real and ultimate house of God. This is admitted by Solomon himself, let alone God. In Solomon’s dedication prayer he prays this to God:”Now therefore, O Jehovah, God of Israel, may Your word that You spoke to Your servant David be confirmed.

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BUT [my emphasis] . will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens are not able to contain You, how much less this house which I have built.

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Yet have regard to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplication . That your eyes may be open toward this house day and night, toward the place of which You said that You would put Your name there, to listen to the prayer which Your servant will pray toward this place” (See 2 Chron. 6:17-20)Solomon realizes that this spendid house for Jehovah cannot be the final reality of God’s dwelling place with man. Although it was very important in the history of Israel, and still is today, as the Jews pray toward its ruins, it is only a dwelling of God with man in type. There must be a more solid reality still to come, as far as Solomon is concerned. And this is echoed by God Himself:”Heaven is my throne, and the earth the footstool for My feet. Where then is the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest? (Isa. 66:1)We might protest and say, “But God, don’t you remember the house that Solomon built for you?”[/b]God says in essence, that that house doesn’t count in the final analysis. He looks toward a certain kind of man in whom He will live and in whom He will dwell to really obtain a house for God:”For all these things My hand has made. But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word” (verse 2)Without going into much detail, it has to be clear to us that God desires to LIVE IN MAN for His house. The house of cedar has its place. And they rebuilt it and shall do so again. But ultimately God’s will is to dwell in man.When Mary a descendent of David, and a virgin, brought forth God incarnated as Jesus Christ, a offspring of David (not through Solomon or Jeconiah), God began to build His true dwelling place in humanity. He began to dwell in man for His rest. And that is all I will say about that right now.Now the problem is that for some people to think God has a son and He is the Father of that son, is a trivial matter. They think this is just some religious talk. They think this is just some spiritual sounding speech. But God is quite serious.To be the son of God means to express the attributes of the Father. It means that the Son is the expression of the Father in His divine nature and divine glory.Solomon fell short of expression the divine attributes of God. He was very wise. And for a season he was very good as a king of Israel. But when Jesus was born and started His ministry, truly, something greater than Solomon was on the earth.Psalm 89 shows us that the degraded elements of the Davidic line were rejected by God:”You have abhored the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his CROWN [by casting it] to the ground . You have made his brightness cease and cast down his THRONE to the ground . How long, O Jehovah? Will You hide Yourself forever” (See Psalm 89) [My emphasis]Solomon’s line was disciplined. His apostasy after many foreign gods and idols did not become a blessing to his legacy. God reserved for Himself another legal way to fulfill His promise to David of a Messianic King as His Son truly expressing the divine glory of the divine Father. This Son was God incarnate as a Man - Jesus.He is not only the Messiah of Israel (presently and temporarily rejected). He is the Savior of the world promised to Eve and Adam in Genesis. He is the seed of the woman (born of a virgin) to buise the head of the ancient serpent, the Devil. He was the woman’s seed. He was born of a virgin woman. And in the process His heel was bruised in His crucifixion on the cross. But in His resurrection He conquered death.”And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed;

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He will bruise you on the head, but you will bruise him on the heel.” (Gen. 3:15)”And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ” (Matt.1:16)The bottom line here is that the ultimate house of God is not the one of cedar and gold. But it is the man in whom God lives in incarnation.Secondly, to be the Son of God is not just sanctimoneous speech. The man with 700 wives and 300 concubines who departed from Yahweh to worship Ashoreth, Milcom, Chemosh, Molech, was not the real Son of the Father. The Son of the Father must express the righteousness, holiness, and glory of the Father.Jesus as the real Son of the Father and descendent of David, is the Son of Man who expressed the Eternal Father in human flesh, to the uttermost by His life, death, resurrection, and enthronement among other things which He accomplished as a man.This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 12:01 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 12:04 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 12:06 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 12:09 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 12:12 PM

Ramoss, Just having the wives and concubines is not the main point. The main point is that the foreign wives led him into idolatry.Once again, to be a son of God is not to be taken as just some nice sounding title. With God it MUST have substance. Don't miss my point. I quoted to you the valuation of Solomon's reign from the Bible itself. That is what God had the writers of Scriptures tell us about Solomon's life.Can you blame me for putting it in negative terms? Read for yourself 1 Kings chapter 11. Where do you see this requirement in the Hebrew Bible?If it is not there but is some tradition of the Jews, please indicate so.This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 10:45 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 10:46 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-09-2006 10:46 PM

Interesting One4Truth.Thanks.

Just the passages provide again. I have been responding to more than one person here.Please give them to me once more. Some readers also may have not seen earlier discussion. So re-referencing would be helpful to them if you are right.This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 10:09 AM

Ramoss,Let me ask you a few questions to help me understand what you are saying:1.) Is this law of the lineage of the king - unbroken male line something that was torah after this prophecy of God in 1 Chron. 22:9? Or was it torah (law) before that time as well?2.) Are you saying that the Messiah must be some other male descendent of Solomon beside that which came from the line of Jeconiah?For example, somewhere in the world now or latter there is a male descendent of Solomon who will be the Messiah?3.) Please define "unbroken" for me.Thankyou.

Ramoss, Thanks.Can you tell me concerning Point # 3 as it concerns those Orthodox Jews who are looking for the Messiah to come?Do these Orthodox Jews feel that the interruption of Jeconiah's curse is a break in the line of Solomon leading to some future Messiah?This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 02:14 PM

Ramoss,It seems that you already answered this question: With these words: Sorry.

Ramoss,You have told me: Do these Orthodox Jews believe that Jeconiah himself was a continuation of this line from Solomon?Or do they believe that God never intended that Jeconiah would be a continuation of this line of kings from Solomon regardless?Does the line exist BETWEEN Solomon and Jeconiah or not, is what I would like to know from these Orthodox Jews.

Ramoss, Was that removal of Jeconiah and his descendents a break in the line of male sons of kings?Are you saying that the Orthodox view is that God will pick up again the line from Jeconiah further down time?Or are you saying that because Jeconiah was SO BAD, that God removed his descendents from the line of David and changed His mind to continue down the Davidic line with ANOTHER son of Solomon?This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 04:31 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 04:31 PM

Mistaken Post.Erased.Rather questions to Ramoss: This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:18 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:18 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:19 PM

I think that you should ask Ramoss how he perceives the questions.At least for the moment. And the question is specifically to Ramoss.Clearly, behavior has something to do with the FITNESS to be included in the lineage to the Messiah. Ramoss has represented the Orthodox view to me that Jeconiah was SO BAD that he and his sons were discarded from the possibility of being in the messianic line from David to the Messiah.The law, according to Ramoss, is an unbroken like of father to son. Then God has a problem from the point of Jeconiah. Jeconiah himself is in the line, (again according to Ramoss). But his sons are discarded.So to keep the law God must find another unbroken line of extending from Solomon or He must pick up the line further on from Jeconiah's descendents and nullify the interruption.If the latter choice is out then the former seems the only way. In the former case God has to change His mind about Jeconiah. He must decide that He will reverse His decision and go down another unbroken line from another descendent of Solomon.I am asking Ramoss how does Orthodox Judiasm deal with this situation. What do they attribute God as doing since He cannot continue the unbroken line of kings from the point of Jeconiah.Ramoss, may need time to research this. And I want to give Ramoss all the time needed to find an answer from the Orthodox view.

Arachnophelia, That is my question to Ramoss Arachnophelia.Now, you say you are curious also. I don't know yet what Ramoss will say.But I want to say to you that in Matthew's geneology Jeconiah is definitely not even counted as a king. I pointed out before that the 42 generations are composed in three groups of 14 generations each (caveats not mentioned at the moment).There are the fathers, the kings, and the civilians. Jeconiah is NOT mentioned in the section of the kings. He is mentioned in the section of the civilians.The footnotes of Matthew 1:11(2,3) in the Recovery Version New Testament reads: The Holy Bible Recovery VersionThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:04 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:05 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:07 AM

Ramoss, You mean that though God continued down the line of Solomon the actions of one of the kings on that line caused God to take special measures to change the line of continuation.This must mean that the commitment of God to continue down the line from Solomon is not altogether without certain moral conditions. If a king becomes unworthy of having his descendents continue the line God will intervene. He will not automatically continue if He does not deem it worthy to do so.The case of Jeconiah proves this, from the Orthodox Jewish perspective. This means that though God went down the line from Solomon reaching to Jeconiah, He nevertheless is not bound to continue with Jeconiah’s line. The line from Jeconiah is permanently cursed. To keep His promise God therefore must in a sense “rethink” or “reverse” His traversing down that line to seek another line which from Solomon.According to what you tell me of the Orthodox view, this must be the case. No doubt this is true.But how much different in nature is it? We believe that the promise is to David and God re-routed because of the failure of Solomon.The Orthodox view is that God’s promise was to Solomon and God re-routed because of the failure of Jeconiah.In nature the reasoning is exactly the same. The point of re-routing is different. And perhaps the promise of the starting point of the line seems to be different. The view of some Christians is that the starting point is David. You seem to be arguing that the starting point is Solomon. Or at least you seem to be saying that line must be from David through Solomon.Here are some of the verses which lead me to believe that the failure of Solomon caused God to re-route.Solomon had a splendid and marvelous kingdom. I was enthralled again last night as I read chapters 9 and 10 if First Kings about the glory of his reign. But then the Bible candidly tells us what went wrong. (And I think everyone should read how splendid Solomon’s reign was in chapters 9 and 10 before coming to his failures in chapter 11).”But”When we come to the word ”But” we are signaled that in spite of his success, there is a negative to consider.”But King Solomon loved many foreign women . And when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect toward Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father.

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And Solomon went after Ashotoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable thing of the Ammonites. And Solomon did what was evil in the sight of Jehovah and did not fully follow Jehovah as David his father had done.

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Then Solomon built a high place to Chemosh the detestable thing of Moab . and Molech the destestable thing of the children of Ammon . And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods .

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So Jehovah became angry with Solomon because his heart turned away from Jehovah the God of Israel . And Jehovah said to Solomon, Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant.

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(See 1 Kings 11:1-13)The line in bound up with the covenant. This would be true of Solomon as well as with Jeconiah.David had his faults and his failures. But David had one thing, he never went after foreign gods and forsook Jehovah the God of Israel.But this is not all. We should go back to see God’s words to Solomon after Solomon’s dedication prayer of the house of God.”Jehovah appeared to Solomon a second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon.

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And Jehovah said to him, I have heard your prayer and your supplication which you have made before Me; I have sanctified this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there continually.

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And as for you, IF ... [my emphasis]Please take note of the conditional nature of God’s words to Solomon.Continuing:And as for you, IF you walk before Me, as David your father walked, with a perfect and upright heart by observing all that I have commanded you and keep My statutes and My ordinances,

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THEN... [my emphasis]... I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised to David your father, saying, You will not lack a man on the throne of Israel.

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BUT [my emphasis] IF YOU OR YOUR SONS ... [my emphasis]... indeed turn away from following Me and do NOT ... [my emphasis] ... keep My commandments and My statutes, which I have put before you, and go and serve OTHER GODS ... [my emphasis] ... and worship them,

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Then I will CUT ISRAEL OFF ...[my emphasis]... from the face of the land which I have given them, and the house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all the peoples” (1 Kings 9:2-7)Please notice that the promise of God is to put His name in the house that Solomon built ”forever” (verse 3). But the BUT-IF-THEN condition says ”and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight . ” (verse 7)We Christians believe therefore that it was probably at Solomon’s failure that God re-routed His promise from the line of Solomon to Nathan, the other son of David.Now perhaps there was some repentence room left to Solomon and sons for a season. But with the failure of Jeconiah the line from Solomon is definitely cut off. I don’t know that much. And God Who is transcendent over time and has His marvelous providence and sovereignty knows more than any of us. I don’t pretend to know at what precise point an eternal God Who knows all made a decision to do something.But basically what the Orthodox view of what happened with Jeconiah, I believe happened with Solomon. But how is it fair for you to criticize our reasoning when the Orthodox reasoning is so similar?And the passages which I quote to you in part, confirm that God followed through in His conditional promise to Solomon.This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 02:09 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 02:10 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:43 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:52 PM