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Author Topic:   God says this, and God says that
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 353 of 417 (27816)
12-24-2002 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by forgiven
12-24-2002 6:25 PM


quote:
yes, christians do believe that God has given everyone ample testimony of his existence, and God asks only that man trust him

Like what? Also, which version of god or gods are there ample testimonies? Seems the testimonies that we have from the gods comes from somebody who saw/heard/felt the presence of/had their baby of the gods and that we should believe them. As those testimonies come from other humans and we all agree that humans are prone to make mistake after mistake, why should we believe them? If a person tells you that they heard from god and they felt their god's gentle touch and got to play with its children on some planet in the Large Magellenic Cloud, would you believe them?

quote:
that's all he's ever asked... christians believe it is very reasonable to believe God exists... of those who believe God exists, some trust him but don't believe Jesus is Messiah... some trust him but believe Jesus and man are co-Messiahs... some trust him but believe salvation is of God alone, and that Jesus earned it for us... and some don't trust him at all

Well, it's been 2000 years and at least 100 generations. I don't even know what my great-great-great granfather did and your god wants us all to beleive what happened almost 25 times that gap? I think god would be better served just coming down and saying "Hi", do a few miracles, maybe a stint in Vegas with the boys and their tigers to let us know that:

1: He exists.

2: What He really wants.

Until then, telling me that the lessons in life are in a book compiled 1500 years ago with variations due to the translators personal choice of words is the end all just will not fly. I will accept that there is such a thing as wisdom of the ages but the bible is not the only source of ancient wisdom.

quote:
is it reasonable to believe the gospel is true? only if one believes God exists and only if one then trusts him

I would venture to guess that many Muslims, Hindus, and others would strongly contest that. They believe in their god or gods yet put no more faith in your scriptures than you do in their Holy book.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by forgiven, posted 12-24-2002 6:25 PM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 12:35 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 354 of 417 (27817)
12-24-2002 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by doctrbill
12-24-2002 10:14 PM


quote:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV

Which gospel? What translation? Should those who wish to learn what the Christian god said need to learn Aramaic or Greek to really get the full effect? Or is the true gospel, the true holy book written in some dead language on some island peoples who died 10k years ago?

Actually, it sounds more like threats from those who want you to believe the church they support.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by doctrbill, posted 12-24-2002 10:14 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 9:19 AM Mr. Davies has responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 355 of 417 (27830)
12-25-2002 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by doctrbill
12-24-2002 10:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
'all those who have heard the gospel and yet do not believe, will be condemned'- i seem to remember somewhere from sunday school.

"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV

What I'd like to know is - What's to obey?

db


"... believeth on him... "


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by doctrbill, posted 12-24-2002 10:14 PM doctrbill has not yet responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 356 of 417 (27831)
12-25-2002 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Mr. Davies
12-24-2002 11:09 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
quote:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV

Which gospel? What translation? Should those who wish to learn what the Christian god said need to learn Aramaic or Greek to really get the full effect? Or is the true gospel, the true holy book written in some dead language on some island peoples who died 10k years ago?

Actually, it sounds more like threats from those who want you to believe the church they support.


this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-24-2002 11:09 PM Mr. Davies has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-25-2002 2:03 PM forgiven has responded
 Message 367 by Chavalon, posted 12-25-2002 7:58 PM forgiven has responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 357 of 417 (27833)
12-25-2002 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Mr. Davies
12-24-2002 11:04 PM


Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
quote:
forgiven:
is it reasonable to believe the gospel is true? only if one believes God exists and only if one then trusts him

I would venture to guess that many Muslims, Hindus, and others would strongly contest that.

which part of the above would muslims, hindus, and others contest?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-24-2002 11:04 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 358 of 417 (27834)
12-25-2002 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Gzus
12-24-2002 3:07 PM


No on has answered my question yet.

‘however, having established that you have no reason to believe or not believe anything, how can you be punished for not believing?’

please answer

Gzus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Gzus, posted 12-24-2002 3:07 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 2:33 PM Gzus has responded

Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 359 of 417 (27837)
12-25-2002 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by forgiven
12-25-2002 9:19 AM


from forgiven:

quote:
this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?

In a nutshell, yes. But also from my previous posts I find it hard to call any god who makes the rules mumbled, with several different sets on the playing field yet expects those it created to play by the right set or be punished, to be anything like a just god. When people have to use the phrase "that is god's justice" to describe what most of us would call inhuman at best or down right barbaric, that is just making an excuse for a being that should be able to state what it wants clearly and directly into the minds of every creature in the cosmos.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 9:19 AM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 2:38 PM Mr. Davies has responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 360 of 417 (27841)
12-25-2002 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Gzus
12-25-2002 1:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
No on has answered my question yet.

‘however, having established that you have no reason to believe or not believe anything, how can you be punished for not believing?’

please answer

Gzus


you established nothing that i could see... you *asserted* something, but that's an entirely different matter...

evidently you believe it is true that there is "..no reason to believe or not believe anything.."... do you not see the internal tension in that statement? by what reasoning do you state as true your proposition while at the same time denying the existence of the reasoning necessary for the proposition?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 1:42 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:43 PM forgiven has responded
 Message 373 by Gzus, posted 12-26-2002 3:32 PM forgiven has responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 361 of 417 (27843)
12-25-2002 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Mr. Davies
12-25-2002 2:03 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
from forgiven:
quote:
this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?

In a nutshell, yes. But also from my previous posts I find it hard to call any god who makes the rules mumbled, with several different sets on the playing field yet expects those it created to play by the right set or be punished, to be anything like a just god. When people have to use the phrase "that is god's justice" to describe what most of us would call inhuman at best or down right barbaric, that is just making an excuse for a being that should be able to state what it wants clearly and directly into the minds of every creature in the cosmos.


then before we precede, since you affirm the existence of *some* God, tell me about the one you believe in... tell me his attributes, his teachings, his will for you... i need to know what you believe so i don't build a straw man (or straw God) to argue against


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-25-2002 2:03 PM Mr. Davies has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-26-2002 10:40 AM forgiven has responded

Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 362 of 417 (27844)
12-25-2002 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by forgiven
12-25-2002 2:33 PM


Ah yes, a true skeptic

Let me put it another way.

You preach the gospel to me. Why should I believe you? Can you prove that the gospel belongs to ‘truth’, which is inaccessible to humans (read Berkeley)? If not, then why should I believe you? How can God punish me for not believing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 2:33 PM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 3:08 PM Gzus has responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 363 of 417 (27852)
12-25-2002 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
Ah yes, a true skeptic

Let me put it another way.

You preach the gospel to me. Why should I believe you? Can you prove that the gospel belongs to ‘truth’, which is inaccessible to humans (read Berkeley)? If not, then why should I believe you? How can God punish me for not believing?


when berkeley says that truth is inaccessible to humans, do you believe he is telling the truth? by what route, being human, did he reach this truth?

the christian worldview is the only one that has as a set of presuppositions the things necessary for both knowledge and truth... all worldviews begin with presuppositions, the honest person admits as much... but i see a glaring inconsistency in the statement "it is in fact true that we can not know truth"... do you?

i still need to know more about this god you believe in... tell me some about him/her/it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:43 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 3:25 PM forgiven has responded

Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 364 of 417 (27855)
12-25-2002 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by forgiven
12-25-2002 3:08 PM


I am referring merely to the god of the majority of the creationists on this forum, ‘jehovah’, ‘allah’, the guy upstairs, fire and brimstone. The Judaeo-Christian concept of damnation. (a problem which admittedly not all religions have)

"it is in fact true that we can not know truth?" – yes, well,

noting the absurdity of the statement, I have attempted to formulate a ‘better’ one.

Truth, undeniable, perfect argument immune to the powers of scepticism. This can never be achieved by humans because there is always the sceptical argument

‘what if logic itself is flawed’ you cannot ‘logically’ prove that ‘logic’ is unflawed since it is ‘logic’ which is in question. This is the shortfall of nihilism, religion and everything else that ‘we’ experience or claim to experience.

[This message has been edited by Gzus, 12-25-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 3:08 PM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 4:40 PM Gzus has not yet responded
 Message 366 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 4:44 PM Gzus has not yet responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 365 of 417 (27858)
12-25-2002 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Gzus
12-25-2002 3:25 PM


Originally posted by Gzus:
"it is in fact true that we can not know truth?" – yes, well,

noting the absurdity of the statement, I have attempted to formulate a ‘better’ one.

Truth, undeniable, perfect argument immune to the powers of scepticism. This can never be achieved by humans because there is always the sceptical argument

‘what if logic itself is flawed’ you cannot ‘logically’ prove that ‘logic’ is unflawed since it is ‘logic’ which is in question. This is the shortfall of nihilism, religion and everything else that ‘we’ experience or claim to experience.

i would like to draw your attention to some things you say and hope that by doing so you will understand why i can say that christianity, while also utiliizing a certain degree of circularity in its argumentation, can at least remain consistent within its worldview

you say above, "Truth, undeniable, perfect argument immune to the powers of scepticism. This can never be achieved by humans because there is always the sceptical argument."

now look closely at that... you are making a truth claim, that being that truth "..can never be achieved by humans because there is always the sceptical argument." if that is the case, how is it you are able to state it as truth? if truth can't be achieved, it can't then be the case that such a proposition is true... this is obscenely inconsistent

and again, "..you cannot ‘logically’ prove that ‘logic’ is unflawed since it is ‘logic’ which is in question."

by what vehicle do you arrive at the above? logic itself? your worldview consists of, in totality, an absence of everything... you deny the very logic necessary to argue logically, you deny the very truth necessary to state any proposition as true...

surely you can see that what you profess to believe is in fact irrational...

i, on the other hand, know that metaphysical entities such as logic and truth exist... they exist because there is a God in whom they are embodied, perfectly... they exist in time because God has created man "in his image"... i know the material isn't all there is, you have to utilize the tools of my worldview to even put forth an argument for your worldview... doesn't that bother you?

examine it closely and see if you don't come to the conclusion that irrationality can't be, in and of itself, a basis for one's belief system... if you find your beliefs to be at odds with one another, maybe it's time to examine other beliefs, ones *not* containing such unbearable tensions


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 3:25 PM Gzus has not yet responded

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 366 of 417 (27859)
12-25-2002 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Gzus
12-25-2002 3:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
I am referring merely to the god of the majority of the creationists on this forum, ‘jehovah’, ‘allah’, the guy upstairs, fire and brimstone. The Judaeo-Christian concept of damnation. (a problem which admittedly not all religions have)

i would like to know something about this god you believe in... the ones you mention above have certain things in common but also certain inconsistencies one with another... it's *your* god i'd like to know about... tell me about him

DELETED BY EDIT A QUOTE INCORRECTLY ATTRIBUTED TO GZUS

[This message has been edited by forgiven, 12-25-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 3:25 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Chavalon
Inactive Member


Message 367 of 417 (27867)
12-25-2002 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by forgiven
12-25-2002 9:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
quote:
"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV

Which gospel? What translation? Should those who wish to learn what the Christian god said need to learn Aramaic or Greek to really get the full effect? Or is the true gospel, the true holy book written in some dead language on some island peoples who died 10k years ago?

Actually, it sounds more like threats from those who want you to believe the church they support.


this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?


This is a logical question, Forgiven, but of course logic only works within logically indeterminate limits. Gzus can very possibly be persuaded of this, but it cuts both ways

The mutually exclusive truth claims made by strong adherents of all the religions mentioned do seem to throw severe doubt on the universal validity of any of them.

Most pragmatic empiricists do not see profit in ideas of the transcendent, especially in sorting through claim and counter-claim, and may be called atheists, as much for a lack of interest as a lack of capacity for the subject.

Suppose a buddhist were to claim that the concept of God is a benign and useful way of conceptualising the thoughts and feelings which arise if one sees merit in entertaining such ideas.

Buddhists can and do describe themselves as pragmatic, empirical, religious and atheistic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 9:19 AM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 8:21 PM Chavalon has responded

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