Is it 'boring' being God?

That's not necessary. If there is no free will, then you were destined not to believe in it and I was destined to believe in it.That is to say, something caused us to believe whatever we believe.But a belief which is caused need not, logically, be true.However, a belief that comes about as a result of valid logical process, rather than being caused, has to be true.Look at the 2 senses of the word "because." It can refer to a causal relationship or ground/consequent relationship."He died because he smoked cigarettes" (causal)"He must be guilty because, as we have already proved, he was the only man in the room that night" (ground/consequent)These need not coincide. In point of fact, if we think a statement is caused, we tend to dismiss its logic."He believes that because he is a man," said the woman tartly.(causal). The woman is dismissing the man's belief because she thinks it's caused by his being of the masculine gender.

Robin,So are you saying that behaviours that arise from logic are "freely willed"?What if the premises were false or incomplete but the logic itself was properly done?lfen

This FREE WILL diversion is off-topic.It might be worth discussing. But this isn't the proper thread.A quick search found several threads

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Edited out a double post.This message has been edited by lfen, 01-15-2006 01:34 PM

The JHVH of the OT is an explanation of events as understood at that time. Boredom seems to be a property of complex nervous systems. The more time I spend trying to make sense of Judeo Christian theology the less sense it makes so I'll cut over to a topic of greater interest to me.In the Hindu mythology the entire universe is extruded/dreamed on a single exhalation of God. When God inhales the universe is drawn back into him. There is only one consciousness and all the dream experiences are experienced by it. So if you are experiencing boredom, God experiences boredom. If you are experiencing orgasm, fear, hunger, suffering, joy, love God is experiencing all those things.But the fundamental nature of being prior to and after the dream is peace (think the peace that passeth understanding). Dreaming is an analogy of course. Think of a dream where you fall in love with a beautiful partner and then later a horrible fire engulfs a building. You wake up. Do you go back to marry your lover or save the people in the building?Only by thinking in a big enough circle, and forgetting major segments of it as I go, can I make sense of the OT God. This Hindu conception makes sense to me. Having said that I can't say I believe it, but it is a better model than the Judeo Christian model.lfen

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The more time I spend trying to make sense of Judeo Christian theology the less sense....

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Yes, the early Christians certainly got themselves into a bind when they attempted to combine Hellenistic pagan philosophy with Judaic cosmology.Another solution to the contradictions inherent in a "perfect" being is to go back to the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews and other ancient theists, and view Yaweh not as some "prefect" being, but simply another being like the rest of us, more powerful, certainly, smarter, perhaps, maybe a more developed moral sense, but ultimately limited, flawed, and subject to the foibles that affect the rest of us.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

nah i would say its a combonation of zoroastrianism and judaic comology
most of the god in that area were pretty much like the greeks and sumerian gods, yawah was pretty much the same, if he saw something he didn't like he would smite them!
it wasn't until the gnostics that many things changed,its a major conflict of a all good god letting bad things happen instead of say being realistic and realizing that things need a balance

But, WHY did He create us? What's the point? If He didn't create us, then we wouldn't need saving, Jesus wouldn't need to have died, we wouldn't have all the suffering and hardships of life if we didn't exist.If He did create us with some of the traits of His mind then is it possible that He was bored and creation was for His entertainment? So, you essentially agree that God created everything because He was bored? There must have been a time when God was the only thing there was, certainly the only non-created being anyway, so something must have caused Him to start creating.All these things buz do not tell us why we were created. Why could God not just be happy with the way things were, with just Him existing by Himself, or with His celestrial buddies? Why bother creating us when He knows many people will spend eternity in hell? Why create them though, what is the point? He is a right nasty piece of work this God of yours buz. What's this based on, scriptural references or apologetics? How do you know that angel's have free will? How do you know that we have free will? The Bible has a great many verses that support predestination. A Christian once told me that there are far more references supporting predestination that any other concept suggested by the Bible. I don't know if that is true or not, I'm not that interested, but I know this gentleman very well and he is normally extremely meticulous in his research, so I imagine that even if he has exaggerated the number of verses suggesting predestination, there will at least be a fair number of them. I see a couple of problems here. First, surely true free will requires that you have proof of all the options and outcomes available? If I had proof that God was real, and that the core Christian beliefs were true, then I am pretty sure the Lord would be my shepherd. But we don't have all the information that would allow us to make a choice that would really qualify as free will. What we do have is very strong evidence for not considering the Bible as a reliable source for anything; at face value, it is such a mess in relation to history, science, and theology that I don't see any reason to treat it as anything else but an excellent example of ancient literature.The second problem is that God apparently can force you in to doing His will, a la Jonah. So, how do you know that God hasn't manipulated a particular situation (a la Book of Ruth) so that your 'free will' choice is really the only option available, or at least the most sensible choice? I think The Book of Ruth, one of my favourite books, highlights this perfectly. One of the main themes is how God is in control of everything, He manipulates the players and events to suite His purposes, so free will in Ruth is really quite stifled. I honestly have great difficulty in comprehending how anyone can possibly want to worship such an evil being. A being that has no problem writing off 6 million Jews as part of a plan! This is absolutely horrendous buz, are you sure Lucifer got kicked out of heaven? This isn't going too well either, still no sign of Jesus, plus Israel has moved out of some areas of the Promised Land. Not good for the scary apocalyptic prophecies.Brian

"But, WHY did He create us? What's the point? If He didn't create us, then we wouldn't need saving, Jesus wouldn't need to have died, we wouldn't have all the suffering and hardships of life if we didn't exist.If He did create us with some of the traits of His mind then is it possible that He was bored and creation was for His entertainment?"It's part of his nature to want to reveal himself to others, this is where the trinity comes in. basically he can reveal himself to himself. this goes for glorifying too. He just wants to reveal himself to more people."He not only created Satan, but he created all the fallen angels the beings many consider to be the demons of Satan of which the Bible speaks, both OT and NT. The OT refers to them as evil spirits.Why create them though, what is the point?"the point is to give us a desision, serve him or satan.
its like the difference between a slave and someone who helps you because they love you."so free will in Ruth is really quite stifled."no, we always have a choice. a lot of the time good one is the sensible one . and who are you gonna want in charge, someone who barely knows a thing(humans) or someone who knows everything there is to know(God)."I honestly have great difficulty in comprehending how anyone can possibly want to worship such an evil being. A being that has no problem writing off 6 million Jews as part of a plan! This is absolutely horrendous buz, are you sure Lucifer got kicked out of heaven?"

This is prolly the number one miscommunication between christians and others. WE MAKE THE CHOICES, GOOD OR BAD!!!! sorry, just wanted to make sure my point got across . God uses those choices. He did not make Hitler kill all the jews, he used Hitlers sin for good. Thats not evil.

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the simplest organisms are the most likely to survive. stupid people are survivors

The only reason I can think of why God is portrayed the way he is, is because he's an invention of the limited human mind. God is supposed to be all these 'omni' things, right? Omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniscient... so why oh why could God not have been omnipatient?Why not just try over and over again with those mischievous pesky little humans? After all, there's an eternity ahead, so it's not as if God would be in a particular hurry to get it right, is it? But no, these smalltown humans just couldn't think it up, could they? Omnibenevolent? Cool. Omnipresent and omniscient? Even better. But omnipatient? Come on, NOBODY can be that patient, can they?Besides, it would make for a rather boring plot for the Bible, wouldn't it? I mean, imagine: thousands and thousands of similar chapters in which God forgives the humans once more and then, surprise surprise, they betray his trust. Again. How credible is that? It wouldn't sell, would it? The readers would go: "What is this crap? A bad case of writer's block?"A ripping yarn in which God kills 'em all every now and then, that's what our readers want. And an open end with the promise of more disaster will make them yearn for the sequel. (Which is badly needed by the way, what with all the competition from different religions, nowadays.)Believe me, it's all just a question of marketing.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

uhhhhhhh.....interesting perpective...I guess .
But anyway, what would he do with those who were following faithfully? and God created us perfectly, I don't think God could change anything with how he created us and still be himself.

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the simplest organisms are the most likely to survive. stupid people are survivors

Why, smite them of course! Nothing gets a believer to believe even firmer than a good smiting once in a while. Never heard of those people who, for example, lost their child to a perfectly harmless disease - if you are innoculated, of course - and who staunchly declare that it was the will of God? So the fable goes. In reality however... A bit of a disappointment then, isn't it? Being omnipotent and having only one option?This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 31-Jan-2006 12:51 PM

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

God actually did create us perfect but we sure didn't stay that way. eh, whatever

Hi Dork, Have you got a reference for this please, or is it your own opinion?Brian.

I'm just assuming God is perfect, and a perfect being can't create something that is imperfect. We made the choice, with temptation but we still did.Edit: no I don't have a reference, like I said I'm just assumingThis message has been edited by dorkfrommarn, 01-31-2006 02:08 PM