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Author Topic:   evolutionary chain
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1867
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 181 of 204 (283704)
02-03-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Re: horse evolution
the eohippus has 18 pairs of ribs, the mesohippus has 15 pairs of ribs, mirohippus has 19 pairs of ribs, modern horse is back to 18. (Prentis Hall Life Science 1991, page 500.) Going up and down with the rib count? Come on. thats not evolution.

Common mistake, thinking that evolution demands a "forward" progression ie: animals get bigger/stronger. There is nothing in evolutionary theory that would demand that the rib count increases or stays constant.


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Christian, posted 02-03-2006 6:43 PM Christian has responded

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6621
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 182 of 204 (283707)
02-03-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Re: horse evolution
quote:
The Tulsa Zoo took out their horse evolution display because of it's inaccuracies.

This may very well be false. I found the following:

In September, City and PArk officials met with Dan Hicks and his associate to discuss their concerns. Although we did not feel it was appropriate to honor all of his requests, we did agree to the following: (a) to place a sign at the Zoo's entry which states, 'There are many views on the origin of biological species and their behaviors. The information that accompanies our displays is based on compelling evidence of the natural sciences. Because scientific knowledge is subject to change, these displays may be revised as new informatin becomes available.' (b) to reword one line of signage from our chimp exhibit from 'Scientific blood tests show that chimpanzees are man's closest biological relative, branching off from a common ancestor about 6 million years ago' to 'Scientific blood tests, including DNA analysis, show a biological similarity between chimps and people'. (c) to modify the exhibit on Equus ancestry to more completely reflect current sicentiifc thought, using the writings of Dr. Bruce McFadden.

Judging from one book that he has written, it would appear that Dr. McFadden is an evolutionist expert on the evolution of horses.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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nator
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 204 (283708)
02-03-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Re: horse evolution
quote:
They tell children modern horse came from a four toed horse(Silver Burder, Earth Science 1987 pg 361).

Actually, it's was 4 toes in front, and 5 toes behind, IIRC.

quote:
What they don't tell kids is the original horse, the eohippus has 18 pairs of ribs, the mesohippus has 15 pairs of ribs, mirohippus has 19 pairs of ribs, modern horse is back to 18. (Prentis Hall Life Science 1991, page 500.) Going up and down with the rib count? Come on. thats not evolution.

...and the modern breed of Arabian horses has 17 ribs while all other horses have 18.

Why isn't that evolution, anyway?

Humans evolved from primates which had tails, and we now have a dinky little tailbone that is fused.

quote:
1. Made up by Othniel C. Marsh in 1874 from animal fossils he picked up scattered across the world, not from the same location. (He arranged them in the order he thought it happened)

Why is finding fossils all over the world a problem?

quote:
2. Modern horses are found in layers with and lower than anciect horses.

Cite?

quote:
3. The "ancient horse" is not a horse at all, it's a hyrax still alive in South America today. Ribs toes and teeth are different.

That is completely false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Christian, posted 02-03-2006 6:43 PM Christian has responded

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 184 of 204 (283709)
02-03-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Hovind Alert!
Made up by Othniel C. Marsh in 1874 from animal fossils he picked up scattered across the world, not from the same location. (He arranged them in the order he thought it happened)

He arranged them based on their stratigraphy


2. Modern horses are found in layers with and lower than anciect horses.

Any examples of this?

3. The "ancient horse" is not a horse at all, it's a hyrax still alive in South America today. Ribs toes and teeth are different.

This ancient horse is probably referring to Hyracotherium:


Click to enlarge

A hyrax is quite different:


Click to enlarge

Images and info can be found at T.O

Incidentally, I hope whoever wrote that in another forum credited its author, Kent Hovind

This message has been edited by Modulous, Sat, 04-February-2006 12:08 AM


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6621
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 185 of 204 (283713)
02-03-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Re: horse evolution
quote:
Also, I'm still looking for more detailed information on horse evolution,if anyone knows of any sources.

Also, besides the book to which I linked in a previous post (which might be more technical than you want, although sometimes the technical literature can be great reading, in my opinion), here is a very brief summary on horse evolution, although I don't know how up-to-date it is.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 186 of 204 (283719)
02-03-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by DrJones*
02-03-2006 6:46 PM


what aig has to say about horse rib counts
Common mistake, thinking that evolution demands a "forward" progression ie: animals get bigger/stronger. There is nothing in evolutionary theory that would demand that the rib count increases or stays constant.

well, that's not actually even the issue. and i'll quote this from a creationist source lest some claim i'm making it up:

quote:
Modern horses can have 17, 18 or 19 pairs of ribs.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i3/horse.asp


neartest i can tell, i am not quoting out of context, either. they seem to be arguing that transitional horses fall within the acceptable variation within a "kind," and there has been a bit of a trend towards fewer toes and larger bodies.

why this isn't "evolution" (the variation of heritable features in a population from one generation to the next) i have no idea.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 187 of 204 (283722)
02-03-2006 7:33 PM


Amazingly enough, we don't seem to have a specific "horse evolution" topic
It sure seems, to me, that we should. Wished I'd caught this situation earlier.

Maybe someone would like to start one, and link back to this topic.

Adminnemooseus


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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6621
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 188 of 204 (283724)
02-03-2006 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Adminnemooseus
02-03-2006 7:33 PM


Re: Amazingly enough, we don't seem to have a specific "horse evolution" topic
It would appear to me that the recent posts on horse evolution are very much on topic. Since the OP was a challenge to provide evidence for evolution in the form of transitional species, examples would certainly be called for; since this recent subthread was started by the claim that horse evolution is not such an example, the discussion of horse evolution is warranted.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-03-2006 7:33 PM Adminnemooseus has responded

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Percy
Member
Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 189 of 204 (283726)
02-03-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Adminnemooseus
02-03-2006 7:33 PM


Re: Amazingly enough, we don't seem to have a specific "horse evolution" topic
There was a detailed horse evolution topic two or three years ago, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it had a misleading title.

AbE: Maybe I'm misremembering. Schraf has some detailed posts on horse evolution in a couple threads, though. Check out her posts in Vestiges for Peter B. and Show one complete lineage in evolution.

--Percy

This message has been edited by Percy, 02-03-2006 07:52 PM


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 190 of 204 (283734)
02-03-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Chiroptera
02-03-2006 7:39 PM


Re: Amazingly enough, we don't seem to have a specific "horse evolution" topic
Rushed that previous message a bit too much.

Horse evolution is on topic in this topic, but then again, the topic is so broadly defined that the biological evolution of most anything could well be on topic.

Percy has pointed out the topics where, in the past, horse evolution has been discussed.

I still think an "Evolution of Horses" topic would be a good thing. And I think our main "horsey" person, Schrafinator, might be the one to start it.

Adminnemooseous

Added by edit:

The main series of horse related messages seems to start here, in the "Show one complete lineage in evolution" topic.

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-03-2006 08:46 PM


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Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 191 of 204 (284744)
02-07-2006 7:34 PM


Looks like I should get a copy of the book Chiroptera mentioned. Maybe I'll find it at the library.
    
Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 192 of 204 (285036)
02-08-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by DrJones*
02-03-2006 6:46 PM


Re: horse evolution
Common mistake, thinking that evolution demands a "forward" progression ie: animals get bigger/stronger. There is nothing in evolutionary theory that would demand that the rib count increases or stays constant.

Ok but if you have a horse with 18 pairs of ribs, it makes sense that one might evolve from it which has 19 or 17, but 15? How likely is that. And then for another one to evolve from the one with 15 which has 19? Seems like the rib count would either go up or down, not back and forth in great leaps like that.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Christian
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 193 of 204 (285040)
02-08-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Chiroptera
02-03-2006 6:55 PM


Re: horse evolution
This may very well be false.

It may be. I still am not sure what I think of Kent Hovind. Turns out that he was the guy's source. I already said this but next time I'm at the library I'm going to try to get my hands on a copy of that book by McFadden.
This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5390
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 194 of 204 (285043)
02-08-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Christian
02-03-2006 6:43 PM


Re: horse evolution
3. The "ancient horse" is not a horse at all, it's a hyrax still alive in South America today.

This is wrong everywhere you look. Hyracotherium or "eohippus" isn't any more related to the modern hyrax than humans are. The hyrax is kin to elephants and manatees, instead. And they live in Africa and the Middle East, not South America. Pretty poor fact-checking, I would say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Christian, posted 02-03-2006 6:43 PM Christian has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1867
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 195 of 204 (285050)
02-08-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Christian
02-08-2006 5:20 PM


Re: horse evolution
And then for another one to evolve from the one with 15 which has 19? Seems like the rib count would either go up or down, not back and forth in great leaps like that.

Evolution does weird things. Not knowing much about horse anatomy I can't speculate on why the rib count would change. And check out arach's post #186 where he quotes a creationist source that says that modern horse breeds have differing rib counts.


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Christian, posted 02-08-2006 5:20 PM Christian has not yet responded

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