We didn't pray

Who is to say that God was not with you....despite your unbelief? Your Faith and Belief are not in God as I see Him. Tell me a bit more about what you have faith in and what you believe about
predetermination, predestination, fate, and/or luck?

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

Hey Wiz! Faith in faith, eh? Reminds me of Napoleon Hill. He had his famous 13 Principles of Success! If "spiritual" laws work without a definite personified "spirit", what can we define has spirit? A subjective energy of positive affirmation and determination arising from within us?I prefer to believe that "Spirit" is objective, arising from outside us as well as within us...(Holy Spirit, maybe?) but of course thats just me and my bee-leafs! Hills Principles worked for many people...but attainment of some goals did not mean that the overall "answer" to life had been found.

Sounds like a plausible scenario of how God works.Does God answer prayer like Aladdins Genie or does God answer prayer foreknowing our actual needs and in light of a much bigger picture?

Its ok, sidelined....no two flakes are ever alike! We simply must teach veiled virtue about "The Dance" and while you teach the choreography, I will philosophise about who the Director may be..... oftentimes we DO wing it without a script!This message has been edited by Phat, 03-10-2006 02:11 PM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

After reading these exchanges between newer members and ones whom I have grown to know, I conclude that the ONLY effective way to "spread the Gospel" to the world is to live the gospel in front of people,(not in virtual forumland) and trust that they will be persuaded to discern a lifestyle that may better them.As a Believer, I know that no amount of scripture that I quote,
no amount of clever words that I say, and certainly no amount of debate that I engage in shall ever persuade anyone.I could, of course, trust that God reach everyone---in which case I would be better off not interfering--So I now live by the adage of actions and honesty rather than words and "persuasions".

They are. Jesus broke down the commandments into two that fullfilled the rest: If this is the "standard" of the Gospel, it can be argued that most atheists do NOT love the Lord with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.On the flipside, however...It can be also argued that by showing love to the least of these,
(Jars infamous Matthew 25:31-46) anyone who does so is loving God.I worry about my ability to have such altruistic behavior----especially since I am not told when the "Thief" is gonna break in...and yet by wanting to save my life and protect my "stuff" rather than altruistically treating the least among us with everything I can give them, I am failing to live Christian behavior. I still believe that my salvation is by foreknown grace and impartation (rather than my behavior brownie points) but I also know that my behavior stems from how much I choose to give Him rather than how much I want to gain.It is not a natural unction to give away not only the spare coat, but the cloak that one wears.Maybe I need to find some "nice" atheists to teach me how to do good for the sake of it and without promise of anything in return! This message has been edited by Phat, 03-13-2006 10:10 PM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

I like how you capitalized the word "Good". God has already given humans the tools to stop bad things from happening within ourselves. As far as Earthquakes, Tornados, Bee stings, trip and falls, quicksand, and other such mishaps, I am wondering if people expect that God placing a protective bubble around every human would solve the problem? (Did anyone see that movie about the Bubbleboy?)

Hi, Schraff! I think I see your point.1) Does God "help" only those who pray to Him? (From my perspective)
and the answer is No.2) Are non-believers at a disadvantage by missing out on hollaring for help from "God"? (from your perspective)My answer would be that surely God is not so petty as to demand that people grovel in order to receive the good things in life.I would imagine that, being who He is, that God desires all people to have the abundant life!That being said, the ball is not in the court of the Deity. It is in the court of humanity. Care to play Tennis on a sunny day with a worthy opponent who could beat the pants off you yet will even let you win?

This analogy needs some clarification.
1) God is not an opponent of us...He is an opponent of any virus we may have. Perhaps playing above our previous abilities....(doing our bvest) is an admirable game, but we can't win this game.(The game being that human wisdom needs no God) He lets us win by giving us a chance to have a tagteam partner...Jesus Christ.In the Heavenly Court, God is both prosector and defense attorney.
Only a fool would choose to represent themselves.

You got me! That was a BAD analogy!It was more directed in a joking manner to Schrafinator rather than to everyone else, however!Allow me to propose another analogy with somewhat of a Biblical basis...("somewhat" meaning --open to interpretation)1) God was, Is, and Always will be. (Rev 1:18) referring to the Son and (Rev 1:8)which appears to refer to the Father. I am assuming that Revelation 1:18 refers to the Son since God the Father never was dead.2) The Beast of Revelation Was, Is Not, and Yet is. This Beast was

Given power...(Rev 13:7)

Was, now is not, and will come up from somewhere and go to his destruction.9Rev 17:8

People who were written in the Book of Life will live. People whose names were not found written...will go to the destruction, somehow similar to the destruction that the Beast must endure.

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OK...Lets take Was to mean the past. Lets take Is or is not to be indicative of a present moment, arbitrarily as long as the notion of the thought is comprehended and agreed upon.

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Lets take always will be to mean now and forever.

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Lets take will go to his destruction to be a future moment not of the present one.

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Assuming that all my assumptions about these passages are correct, the only thing that matters in the present moment is communion and relationship with others. It matters not if we are playing tennis, in a courtroom, or typing replies on a chat board.

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We either are or are not in agreement concerning the communion.

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Score: Infinity-Love.