What are the odds of God existing?

Is it possible that both GOD and universe existed forever?Is it possible GOD existed forever but the universe came into existence through natural means?Is it possible that GOD existed forever but may someday not exist?Is it possible that GOD is some as of yet not understood aspect of the universe?Does it matter?If GOD exists then GOD exists regardless of any evidence that She does not exist.If GOD does not exist then It does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Thank you but I hope you didn't misunderstand, and maybe you don't since you quoted me saying I have other reasons and evidence for God. I meant I start there in the context of the question this thread is asking, this kind of logical problem, not that I just believe in God out of the blue.

I asked: I think I should have emphasized the eternal character of God. Let me rephrase it:
If the idea of an eternal universe is unreasonable, as you have stated, then isn't the idea of an eternal God unreasonable as well? If not, why not? What difference between God and the universe makes the first's eternal character acceptable, and the latter's not? Fair enough.

Sorry, I did go back and stick in an ABE that said more directly that of course the idea of an eternal Being is just as unreasonable as the idea of a self-existent universe given the terms of this logical problem. Logically, starting from where Robin is starting, neither idea is intrinsically more reasonable than the other. BUT we have evidence of the material universe, which makes it in some sense MORE reasonable. At least we know it exists.I don't know what kind of reasoning would have to go into showing the necessity of a Creator.ABE: But this is a tangent. I was merely pointing out that I don't get Robin's objection to the idea of the universe's coming into being out of nothing, since it isn't any more unreasonable an idea than that it always existed that I can see.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-28-2006 09:50 AM

Didn't this already get hashed out for about 300 posts?It doesn't matter how many holes get poked in robinrohan's false dilemna. He'll keep repeating it.

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

Yes it was hashed out somewhat, and your contribution as I recall was mostly mocking and trivializing and generally disruptive.

cavediver As to the first propsition I would like you to clarify how you can have a creator in a temporally infinite universe since ,to me, it seems that a problem occurs here. I assume,perhaps incorrectly , that a creator would need be more complex than that which he creates.Thatsaid, the issue resolves around the need for the complexity of a creator to arise before having the ability to create the temporal aspect of a universe. This assumes that the temporal aspect is part of the creation.As to the second and as a third possibilty could we dicuss whether there is a problem with a temporally infinite universe that is not created.I would like to anticipate some of your response {perhaps I am being far too cocky here} so I wonder if you could resolve for me a long standing issue I am personally unable to resolve.If we take the position that the universe always existed I assume this is the same as saying that time never had a beginning which seems to me to be impossible for the reason that without a beginning how can any point in time ever be arrived at?I know this is topic drift and I will open a new topic if need be but this has been a long standing paradox with me.This message has been edited by sidelined, Fri, 2006-04-28 08:01 AM

Yes, after I posted I saw you edited your post to that effect, but I thought it best not to edit mine, so as not to confuse the matter any further. More reasonable than what? How does it say anything about whether or not the universe has always existed? Neither do I, but I have a hunch it's impossible.

More reasonable than what?
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More reasonable than the existence of a Creator.

Yeah, that's my thing. It's about time someone realized that.So has anything actually been added this time around? Because it looks like a flat-out repetition of ideas that have already been argued into the ground.

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

It's a false dilema of a trivial question that is of no use or purpose in the first place. It ranks right up there with "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ah, I see.Dare I say, you are being unreasonably reasonable. That's nice.Got to go now. Say hello to Dan from me. Tell him he can disrupt anything anytime, as far as I'm concerned. (In other words: don't touch Dan.)See you.{popped back in to fix a spelling error}This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 28-Apr-2006 03:18 PM

I think it's an interesting question, and even if it needs some refining I think the two factors of Being and Things cover the field.And by the way, the question about the angels on the head of a pin wasn't a trivial question. It was part of an investigation into the degree of materiality of spiritual entities. Tediously academic perhaps but the materiality of angels is a reasonable question.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-28-2006 10:22 AM

OK, Parasomnium, go ahead and explain to me how something can come from nothing.

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God does not "exist."---Paul Tillich, Christian theologian

The other "factor" is the nature of that creation. We can discuss that if you like, but it will take us far afield. One might propose, for example, an argument against the existence of God that we can call the argument from "lack of design." This would be an example of another factor that would possibly carry weight, corresponding to the state of your health in regard to your comparison.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-28-2006 09:48 AM