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Author Topic:   What are the odds of God existing?
Chronos
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 89 of 304 (307414)
04-28-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-26-2006 9:05 PM


Now, if all we consider is the fact of creation (rather than the nature of that creation--problematical to say the least), there is no reason to choose either option 1 or option 2. We might as well flip a coin. The odds are 50/50.
The odds of being correct about God's existence (supposing you randomly selected your belief, which I don't think anyone does) may be 50/50, but that certainly doesn't show that there's a 50% chance of God existing. Either God exists, or doesn't: I'll give you that. However, given that there's no reason to assert either (God exists or God does not exist), there's no reason to assign equal probabilities (or any probabilities, really) to either event. It's incalculable.
Now... Back to the argument...
There are 2, and only 2, possibilities for the origin of the universe:
1. it was created by an eternal Being
2. The universe has always existed in some form
All other possibilites can be reduced to these two. A Pagan-style God, for example, a God that arose from nature, would reduce to option #2. Such a God would be logically unnecessary. It we say that perhaps the universe came into existence as a result of some other universe, that also reduces to #2. The options are Nature (an eternal thing) or a god (an eternal being).
Another possibility is a necessary God who did not create the universe.
Another possibility is a universe that was created by a God that no longer exists.
As others have pointed out, a third possibility is that the universe simply exists and did not exist eternally. Correct me if I'm wrong, but electrons and positrons "poof" in and out of existence all the time with no apparent cause.
I would also argue that the notion of cause and effect is time dependent, so creation (causing the universe to exist) would require time, which in of itself is a property of the universe. My head is spinning, so I'll stop here. Your argument has been demonstrated to be fallacious though, it seems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 04-26-2006 9:05 PM robinrohan has not replied

Chronos
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 137 of 304 (307499)
04-28-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by robinrohan
04-28-2006 4:37 PM


Have you ever known an event that was not caused?
Now who's doing the inductive reasoning?
What about virtual particles?
Also, cause and effect may only be a property of our universe. So, even if every event that occurs within the universe is caused, it doesn't necessarily apply to the universe itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 04-28-2006 4:37 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Chiroptera, posted 04-28-2006 5:04 PM Chronos has not replied
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 04-28-2006 5:15 PM Chronos has not replied
 Message 140 by robinrohan, posted 04-28-2006 5:16 PM Chronos has replied

Chronos
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 150 of 304 (307519)
04-28-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by robinrohan
04-28-2006 5:16 PM


What about them? Lay forth your evidence.
I'll refer you to some good Wikipedia articles, they explain them better than I do.
Quantum fluctuations, virtual particles, and the Casimir effect:
Quantum fluctuation - Wikipedia
Virtual particle - Wikipedia
(Especially the part about pair production)
Casimir effect - Wikipedia
For more on how these discoveries could point to an uncaused universe:
CP violation - Wikipedia
Inflation (cosmology) - Wikipedia
This is getting way off topic though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by robinrohan, posted 04-28-2006 5:16 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by cavediver, posted 04-28-2006 6:11 PM Chronos has replied

Chronos
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 178 of 304 (307587)
04-28-2006 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by cavediver
04-28-2006 6:11 PM


none of that stuff has any relevance to "something from nothing"
Where do virtual particles come from then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by cavediver, posted 04-28-2006 6:11 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by cavediver, posted 04-29-2006 4:30 AM Chronos has not replied

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