The Creo Manual Now on TV

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It's the adulterer part that frightens me. This amounts to saying that being a hetrosexual guy with a healthy sex drive is wrong/a sin.

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No, that's a "fornicator."An "adulterer is someone who cheats on their spouse.

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I believe this to be the correct answer based on following the teachings of Jesus, and being confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

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Yeah, but there's another person over there who has a different answer who also believes that they are following the teachings of Jesus and that they are confirmed in them by the Holy Spirit.What now?

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What different answer?
OMG your right, there is no God!!!

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There are, indeed, very different messages delivered by many, many people, each of whom who profess to know and understand the One Truth.There very well may be a God, or gods.But since all of those professing to have the One Truth can't possibly all be correct if their messages are different, what's a poor seeker of Truth to do?

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You can't just claim there are different messages, you have to show them.

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You can be a sexually active gay person and be a good Chrsitian.
You cannot be a sexually active gay person and be a good Christian.You need to do good works to earn a place in heaven.
You don't need to do good works to get into heaven but you do need to be "Born Again"The New Testament replaces the Old Testament.
The Old Testament rules (many of them, anyway) are still in effect.All human life is sacred, therefore euthanasia, abortion, and the death penalty are all against Christian morals, as is killing others in war (pacifism)
Some human life is sacred, therefore euthanasia and abortion are wrong, but the death penalty is OK, as is killing others in war.Would you like me to go on?Genesis/the factual claims of the Bible are literal truth.
Genesis/the factual claims of the Bible are not literal truth.We are currently in the End Times.
We are not currently in the End Times.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-09-2006 09:02 PM

So, the Christian who takes the Gospels as literal and inerrant truth and another Christian who does not take the Gospels as literal and inerrant truth are giving me the same message?How do you figure?

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Or one could argue, that if you had enough faith, you could tell the murderer, and then God would take care of Him for you.

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...and I'd call such a person really stupid.God likes stupid people best?

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I think the expression was "poor in spirit". Its kind of an spiritual stupidity as opposed to an intellectual one.

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I think riverrat was clear, though, when he said that people with enough faith could go ahead and tell the murderer the location of thieir family and let God take care of things.

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Well that's the whole point. They are tools, and they have a time and place to be used.

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No, you have missed the point.Asgara said that this film will only work on people who have already drunk the Kool-Aid.

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Some people know nothing about the gospel of Jesus. Even people that go to church can't even answer the last question, in the series of questions, correctly.

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I do not believe it is the correct way to preach the gospel in all circumstances, but it is effective and quick way to get it across. I believe the correct way to preacht the gospel, is with love.

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Preaching with love but without sound theology is irresponsible.But hey, splinter sects of Christianity, or any religion, develop this way, so it's just another sign that anybody can preach anything and some people will believe it.

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No, I haven't missed the point. I have first hand experience in using these tools. I cannot think of a better way to preach the gospel in such a short time.

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Those tools are laughable unless you have already believe, and if someone is intelligent and already believes, there is a good chance that they will be embarrassed that the video exists.

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There is nothing there that is against the bible. It's all biblical, hence it is truth, and the truth always wins in the end.

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If all people needed to do is read the Bible to understand The Truth, then why are there thousands of christian sects who's doctrines differ so much?

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For someone that has no idea about the truth, it is a clear and simple way to let them know about it.

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No, for someone who doesn't already believe, the video is laughably stupid.That's the point Asgara made and that you seem to not yet comprehend.

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Jesus saves us, that's the gospel of Jesus. We are forgiven by His act, that is what people need to know.

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...too bad that the video doesn't work unless you already believe that.

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This makes no sense. How to love someone while lying to them?

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Who said anything about lying?People who interpret the Bible through ignorance or bigotry or political motivation, or whatever, aren't lying. They truly believe that what they are saying and teaching is the Truth.

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All religions have a golden rule of love others, but Christianity differs in that it is done through God, not ourselves. The others are just religious moralism.

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So what? Perhaps this very fact is what shows it to be a false religion.

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Preaching without the Holy Spirit is irresponsible.

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And pray, how am I supposed to tell if a preacher has the Holy Spirit or not?

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What we interpret from a book, is our own subjective religious moralism. When guided by the Holy Spirit, we are not relying on ourselves, but God.

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So how do I know if a preacher has the Holy Spirit?Lemme guess.I "just know"?Or, I have to take his or her word for it?

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The difficult thing is doing that, being obedient to God, and relying on Him. Many times I have been eveagilizing to people, and things have come out, that I know are not from me. Thoughts that pop into my head, and when spoken over that person gives them deep revealation and bring them to a point a tears.

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There's no way in this world, that I am smart enough to con people into a state of this being on my own, plus it is not part of my nature, you should know this by all the conversations we have had. I am not a green miracle rag guy.

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Don't sell yourself short, rat.We can all be great salespeople with enough practice and effort. Edited by schrafinator, : edited to add content

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That's dogma, has nothing to do with the truth.

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No, that's interpretation of the Bible. You were the one who said that, "There is nothing there that is against the bible. It's all biblical, hence it is truth, and the truth always wins in the end."

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The video has nothing to do with anything.

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Oh? Then why did you say the following about the video?:

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For someone that has no idea about the truth, it is a clear and simple way to let them know about it.

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IT's actually going out into the world and preaching is what does it.

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I thought that the vide was "a clear and simple way to let people know about the truth?"

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Believe what? That lying is bad?

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Er, what? That doesn't follow from what my message contains."Jesus saves us, that's the gospel of Jesus. We are forgiven by His act, that is what people need to know." That statement of yours is what I replied to with:"...too bad that the video doesn't work unless you already believe that."Please read the messages I write and respond to what I say. They are clear, and you are being snotty in your replies. Either that or you are having an amzingly difficult time following along.

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If you can preach to anybody anything, and some people believe it, you are implying that people are foolish, and will believe lies.

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But many people preach things which they do not believe to be lies.They preach the truth as they believe it to be the truth.Who said anything about lying?

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If you preach to someone a lie, that's what they will have a lie. Eventually all lies get found out. Even if it has to be after we die.

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And if you preach to someone and ferverently believe in what you are preaching, it's not a lie. It might be wrong, but it is not a lie.But besides that, people are definitely foolish and will believe lies if there is an emotional payoff for them. Just look at all of the people who believe Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9/11.

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The short answer is by His fruit.

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Ah, so Buddhists have the Holy Spirit and I should be a Buddhist?

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The longer answer is that, I believe you to be a very smart person, and you seem to know truth from lies. Probably the very reason why you don't believe. But if your still not sure, then ask God to reveal to you the truth. Only He can. If you seek the truth, then you will find it.

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Oh, so the answer is I "just know"?

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I tell them the truth.

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That's my sales pitch.

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Right.You believe that what you are saying to them is the truth, no matter if you are talking about air conditioning units or God, so you are a very effective sales person.Your claim that you couldn't possibly have "conned" people into having some kind of transformative religious experience while you were evangelizing to them, and that it had to be God working through you is not at all true and is also is missing my point.You don't need to "con" them because you believe in the truth of what you are saying, just like I believe in what I am saying when I enthusiastically reccommend a wonderful olive oil or cheese to a customer.You're a good salesperson for your religion because you are a true believer, but that doesn't make what you believe The Truth.

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If I was a bad person, and claimed to believe in God, and follow Him, you wouldn't say God doesn't exist because of what riverrat does, would you?

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Absolutely not.

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But if my fruits were good, you would be able to tell that I believe in God, and I am with Him, "if He exists". That would lead you to think that there is a possibility that He exists. Especially if you knew me before, then after.

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Absolutely not.You have just utterly contradicted yourself.If your behavior in the first example doesn't indicate the existence or nonexistence of God, then neither does your behavior in the second example.Your first example shows that the behavior of believers has no bearing on if God exists or not. It is inconsistent to then say that behavior does indicate the existence of God.

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My life is a testimony to how God can work in an individual.

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No.Your life is a testimony to how belief in God and following the tenets of a religion and getting the support of a community can work in an individual.Your belief and your behavior, as you just said, don't indicate that God does or doesn't exist.

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Correct, but your behavior will indicate if God is with you, or if you are in God, not whether God exists or not.

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But you just said that (bad) behavior doesn't indicate if God exists or not. You then went on to say that good behavior should indicate to me that God does exist.I really wish you would take more time to carefully and clearly communicate what you actually mean to say, rat. I cannot count the number of times I have read what you write, made a comment on the clear meaning of what you have written, only to have you say "that's not what I meant."Either you are not thinking through what you are trying to communicate or you are just backpedaling from what you really did mean to say in order to avoid admitting that you made a muddled statment that was easily shown to be so.

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Also, I think I never mentioned behavior, until you did. I mentioned fruits.

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Yes, you did talk about behavior. You said:

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If I was a bad person, and claimed to believe in God, and follow Him, you wouldn't say God doesn't exist because of what riverrat does, would you?

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Being a "bad person" means that you behave badly.What are "fruits" if they are not behaviors?(By the way, your statement above is a backpedal)Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Fruits are the results you leave behind, in your wake.

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A bad tree cannot have good fruits.
A good tree will most likely have good fruits.

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Behavior is not completely relative to the fruits you leave behind.

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Example:
riverrat tries to tell people about God, someone like brenna, but only succeeds in making her upset. So, no good fruits, even though I may have behaved correctly.

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If behavior isn't the way one judges if a Christian bears good fruit or not, then if a Christian beats brenna with a tire iron and in recovery, brenna becomes a Christian, the "fruits" of the attacker are "good", and therefore you know the person is "with God".Right?

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If God told some to beat brenna with a tire iron (never happened) and then she was grateful for it (also never happened) then you could say the fruits of his behavior were good, even though the action wasn't.

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How many times have I got you aggrevated a little? What if by some miracle those times were working in you to help bring you to God? You think my behavior isn't always the best, but the fruits of it may pay off one day in you. Then my prayers would be answered.

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This is incoherent.If you are accepting my implication that the tire-iron maniac has God on his side, then you need to rethink what you are saying.