Creationism, Evolution and the Public Schools

Palestinians were kicked out of their homes by force in 1957(?). And Isreal was created. This was done on orders from the UN and by UN armies. The country of Israel is a insult to human rights. This isn't anti-semitism, just fact. I have no problem with Jewish people, but the country of Israel is another issue altogether.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

And how was the United States of America formed? I could be wrong, but, why yes, I think it was taken by force.

---

And this is what? Justification for doing it again? See, we are supposed to learn from history....

quote:

---

Human rights? Do some research on the arab "brother" states around palestine. They treat palestinians worse than anything Israel has ever done ten fold.

---

Irrelevant. And curious that you provide no proof of your assertion.Tell you what, you tell me that if the UN decided to kick you out and give your home to foreigners you'd be OK with that, and I'll believe that you are serious.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
Is a site with information.

---

So, lets see. Your argument is that after the palestinians were kicked out of thier homeland and forced to flee into OTHER PEOPLE'S countries, they have been treated badly and so Isreali occupation is OK? Are you insane? What you have cited is yet another example of the damage the creation of Israel has done. It is not proof that the Palestinians are better off with Isreal than without.

quote:

---

My point was you have no qualms living in a country that forcefully took the land from the indians.

---

Who told you this? Guess you just made it up. Any country I could move to was at some point taken from someone else. That cannot be escaped, nor is it a justification for continuing the practice.

quote:

---

Sometimes force is needed.

---

And what exactly was necessary about the creation of Isreal?

quote:

---

Israel is staying and fighting.

---

ummm.... hello... Isreal is the invader not the defender.

quote:

---

Israel owned the land before the palestinians.

---

Now I know you are insane.

quote:

---

No refute was given on your behalf to Arachnid's post (although Arachnid did not site any references in his post either)

---

I didn't see the post.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

---

And that nation fell when? Maybe you should check your facts.circa 1000 First Isrealite monarchy under David.926 bce The united monarchy cracks into two -- Isreal with its capitol of Samaria and Judah with its capitol of Isreal.722 bce Isreal is destroyed by the Neo-Assyrians and the ten northern tribes dispersed.584 bce Jerusalem is sacked the Babylonian exile begins.539 bce Cyrus the Persian defeats Babylon333 bce Alexander the Great defeats the Persians.64 bce The Romans take Syro-palestine66-74 ce the Jewish war against Rome. The Jews lose.You can't possibly make of this some kind of claim of ownership. The land has been taken and retaken multiple times since the Jewish Monarchy. Besides, why not give the land to the people the Jews took it from? I mean, they had it first.

quote:

---

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

---

This does not change the fact they were thrown out of their homes by an army. Besides which, you have your facts wrong. During the British Mandate period coins were issued with Palestine inscribed on them. Ap-agenda.org - Menyajikan Informasi Seputar Lifestyle & Judi Online

quote:

---

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

---

As for the first claim, you don't know your history. As to the second, various ethnic groups have had a continual presence in the area. Big deal.

quote:

---

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

---

"Arab" isn't a nation or a government, it is an ethnic group. You could just as easily argue that 'africans' have never controlled Africa. I fail to see the relevance. It doesn't matter much who controlled the area. If it wasn't Isreal, you don't have an unbroken chain of ownership.

quote:

---

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.

---

There hasn't been a Jewish state for this entire 3,300 years, but only for a brief period of it. How can this have been the capitol for 3300 years?

quote:

---

Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity.

---

What does it matter?

quote:

---

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

---

Again, irrelevant. We aren't discussing religion. We are discussing armed forces kicking people out of there home and giving those homes to people who, for the most part hadn't lived there for hundreds or thousands of years.

quote:

---

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

---

LOL....... why is this relevant?

quote:

---

8. Arab and Jewish refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

---

hmmmm..... so the Arab leaders, seeing that things were going to get bloody, told people to flee and you take this as a VOLUNTARY exodus?

quote:

---

9. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and progroms.

---

Again, you are mixing ethnic groups and religious affilations with governments. What are you talking about specifically? When and where?

quote:

---

10. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

---

Why is this relevant?hmmm... lets see. Jews kick out 630,000 people and force them into foreign countries. This causes a backlash of violence against Jews, who flee to Isreal-- ironically, the cause of the problem to start with. Am I close?

quote:

---

11. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory.

---

What? And "Arab" isn't a country and "Arab lands" is not a government.

quote:

---

Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands.

---

If it were "there own people's lands" they wouldn't be refugees would they? This is absurd. Arab is not a government. Arabs do not belond to the same country/political group any more than Spanish speaking Christians belong to the same country/political group. Look at S. America. How many countries are there? How many speak Spanish? How many are Roman Catholic? Yet they are not the same 'peoples'

quote:

---

Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

---

ummm.... that was the point of Israel wasn't it? It is a place for Jews who need somewhere to go. That is why they kicked everybody out. That is why they still keep trying to expand. This is not the same situation the palestinian refugees are in.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

It was my understanding that Israel did not kick out the occupants of the land that they were given, rather that they encouraged them to stay and share the land.

---

This is the myth most people seem to believe. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www/palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story151.html

quote:

---

Why. if Israel is trying so hard to expand John, do they return the land that they take when they slaughter attacking enemies and gain ground?

---

Israel is in a precarious position. Basically, every nation around them is an enemy. They exist because the US and the UN back them. The US, vor example, has armed them with the best weapons we have, including nuclear missiles. If they push things too far, they destroy themselves. I think the tactic is to hassle the Palestinians just enough to chase them off but not enough to get on the bad side of the US and the UN. As for the latter, they can get away with a lot because the US wants an ally in the mid-east. Israel has to play that card.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Erm, do you have a reference for this statement:

---

I am mistaken about the nukes, but not about the US arming Israel. We aren't the only ones doing so, of course. Page not found | Council for Arab-British Understanding------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 01-28-2003]

quote:

---

And you have a new Palestinian gospel to share with us?

---

What kind of response is that? Since when is the truth a 'gospel'?

quote:

---

That is completely biased and illegitimate site. You may as well post something from Arabia.com or Arab News - Worldwide Latest Breaking News & Updates where they discuss daily how 'evil' the Israeli 'empire' is and how it must be pushed into the sea.

---

Kinda like how you cited an ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MILITARY SITE to support your claims. It can't get any more hypocritical than that!!! Thanks for the laugh.Maybe you didn't notice that the article in question was a Washington Reports article. The url given is No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm but it seems to no longer work.You are denying the blatantly obvious. You may as well deny the jewish holocost.

quote:

---

They've attacked Israel before and were defeated.

---

... due to aid from the US.

quote:

---

Correct. They wanted to give the scattered and persecuted jews a homeland.

---

Noble sentiment. I have no qualms with the motivation but with the method. The UN had no right to give that land to anyone, most especially to people who hadn't lived there in centuries for the most part.

quote:

---

Ummm, no.

---

Helluva response there. What do you suppose would happen if the US cut all diplomatic and economic ties to Israel? hmmmm....? Everyone around them would attack. And nuclear weapons or not, they lose.

quote:

---

Oh really? Have you studied the IDF's policy on urban tactics? They calculate precision-based operations to seek and destroy hostile militia. Root out the enemy and cripple the terrorist network = less suicide bombings. Who would have thought?

---

ummmm.... are you sincerely foolish enough to take Israeli public relations material at face value?Oh.... thanks for the link... yet another good laugh!!! The irony is killing me.

quote:

---

I'm not even going to presume what allies the United States government wants or doesn't want in the middle east.

---

Yes, coming to such a conclusion would take a bit of thinking wouldn't it?

quote:

---

The U.S. is committed to Israel, and has sworn to protect it.

---

So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.

quote:

---

This is why many nations in the region have anti-American sentiment.

---

Well, you've got something right. But you go on to argue against yourself, claiming that the problem is religious rather than the result of the military conquest of Palestine.

quote:

---

Does this mean we should stop supporting Israel to "make buddies" with those other nations? I think not. That is illogical and quite dangerous, tactically.

---

Don't kid yourself. The US could wipe out the whole mid-east, just as we did Hitler's Germany in WW2 should the nation's population ever be convinced that it is the thing to do. The need for Israel is not military, it is political. And I'll wager that any politician who suggests that we stop supporting Israel will be crucified by the fundamentalists who consider Israel a God-ordained nation.

quote:

---

We'd be opening ourselves up to treasonous regimes.

---

No? Really? Kinda like now, eh? Israel in no way protects us from treachorous regimes. It, as you say, is the REASON for much of the hatred aimed at the US.

quote:

---

Ever heard of Islamic Koresh?

---

No. And I don't have time to wade through all of the references to David Koresh. Care to give me a hint?

quote:

---

Many nations in that region are not going to simply "make buddies" with us just because we say we're sorry.

---

I never said they would just "make friends." But removing the thorn is bound to help the wound heal.

quote:

---

I understand that religious conviction is something hard for you to understand, but the people in this region have a lot of it.

---

Yes, I believe you and it isn't hard to find Islamic religious leaders call for an end to the hatred and strife. You are focusing on a subset of Islam, not on the whole.

quote:

---

It's a game of poker and mere chance?

---

Metaphor is beyond your grasp as well? Sad....------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Metaphor and sarcasm indicating that your first statement was rediculous.

---

hmmm.... metaphor and sarcasm, eh? Well, you are bad a both. And you can't spell.

quote:

---

You are assuming your position is the truth when there is a lot of historical evidence to refute it.

---

Yes, like all very reliable data put out by the offending parties.

quote:

---

Me: Citing official government sites recognized internationally and formally.

---

And we know how honest governments are. LOL... the joke gets better.

quote:

---

You: Citing some unknown site that contains biased information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda.

---

LOL....1) the popularity of the site is irrelevant
2) that the information is biased is only your pronouncement based upon ------
3) Information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda!!!! ta-ta-da!!!! The ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY, man!!! Talk about specific group with a specific agenda. It just gets better. How can you stand yourself? If I were you, I'd never stop giggling.

quote:

---

Let our audience be the judge.

---

'k.

quote:

---

Yes, we must be cautious of many *.org webpages, shouldn't we.

---

Why yes indeed, they may print a story we don't want to hear. God forbid!!!!

quote:

---

I look at http://www.washington-report.org and I see everything I would see on a Saudi Arabian news site. I.E: "Dollars sent to Israel...", "Bring Islam into the library", "The Zionists...", "For Allah...", etc. The exception is that the people maintaining this site are probably Muslim-Americans.

---

None of which makes the site or the reports wrong. It may just be that they are telling the truth. Am I smelling some well-cooked bigotry? You sure can make Muslim-American sound like a slur. Want we should kick 'em all out?It isn't hard to find the information, if you care to look. Is Robert C. Miller an ultra biased Muslim-American too? Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

quote:

---

I'm sure Meilleur site de rencontre srieux : comparatif et classement 2020 is a nifty site too. Do you cite from there often?

---

Nope, but it strikes me that you should spend some time there.

quote:

---

Nope, I'm denying the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel rhetoric that Islamic and liberal organizations keep spouting.

​

I enjoy taking the historical account and using it to refute the "history changing" propaganda.

---

Sad that you are defending a false history.

quote:

---

How is this relevant?

---

Yes. It is the irony that strikes me. I doubt you'd deny the tragedy of Nazi Germany, but you adamantly deny the tragedy surrounding Israel's creation.

quote:

---

The jews had every right to be there based on both history and modern law.

​

History:

​

The name "Palestine" is derived from the word "Palaestina" meaning "land of the Phillistines".

---

LOL.... so lets give it to the Philistines!

quote:

---

The jews had the land first, and the origin of it's new identity was Rome.

---

That was two thousand years ago! Lets give North America back the various indian nations. We'll give Mexico back to the Mayans-- there are still a number of descendants there. Give back the Philipines. Hell, we'll just uproot everybody and sort the whole world by ancestry!!!!Your argument is absurd.

quote:

---

So, not only were they there first, but they also bought much of their own land back.

---

Yes, but we aren't talking about buying land and moving back are we? I have no problem with that. But we are talking about undeniable military conquest. The jews in Palestine were in no way a majority and took the country by force after the UN declaration in 1948.

quote:

---

Helluva retort there. I notice you use the same tactic in many of your posts.

---

I have a very low tolerance for idiocy.

quote:

---

How do you know that? You haven't even studied their defenses. Like I said, the nations around them have lost before.

---

And you know what I have studied? Don't make yourself look worse by making comments you cannot possible have information to support.Yes, other countries have fought and lost -- against an Israel that has US backing. But the speculation concerns what would happen without US backing so really, your comment is meaningless.

quote:

---

I take much of the unclassified U.S. defense data at face value

---

You are joking?

quote:

---

What does Israeli "public relations material" have to do with the Israeli defense force? One is military, the other is political.

---

What a very strange world you must live in to think that a nations' publicly posted information isn't controlled. Do you think you are really getting Israeli Defense Force material rather than something the Israeli government wants you to see?

quote:

---

I supposed you discount our military analysis as "public relations material" too?

---

Absolutely.

quote:

---

I'm gonna recommend a *.org site:

​

Federation Of American Scientists – Science for a safer, more informed world.

---

Interesting, but what is the point? Other than to highlight that governments ain't all that trustworthy? Why else would such a sight be needed to "challenge excessive government secrecy and to promote public oversight"? In a way, it contradicts much of your claims about the reliability of the information you have presented.

quote:

---

Coming to a conclusion about that would be basking in ignorance.

---

hmmm.... considering the options and coming to a conclusion is basking in ignorance?

quote:

---

quote:
So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.

​

And it's a great national strategy.

---

Surely you must see how you've contradicted yourself here? You first claim that we protect Israel cause we promised, then agree that conveniently breaking promises is good strategy. You must also be basking in ignorance because you have just come to a conclusion about US national policy.

quote:

---

When did I claim that the current problem in the middle east was the result of military conquest of Palestine?

---

You didn't. That is the problem. You appear to be blind to this simple fact. Certainly there are religious elements, like the Zionists who seeded this mess back in the 1880s or so. But it is basically the military conquest of land that is the problem or that is my problem with Israel.

quote:

---

So if we look at this practically: Israel not there anymore = no ally in the region which = bad staging point for military retaliation in the region.

---

Its a good point. But I don't think it is critical to have Israel, especially given that it is a major case of problems in the mid-east to start with.Wheren't you just chiding me about claiming the "US wants an ally in the mid-east"? You've pretty much said the same thing here.

quote:

---

The hint for you is ignorance.

---

Aren't you a pleasant chap?

quote:

---

The Islamic code of "al-Hudaibiya Treaty" has its origins from the time of Muhammed. Its roots were founded when Muhammed made a 10-year treaty with the tribe of Koreish in Mecca and then sudden broke it 3 years later and took it by storm.

---

From what I can tell, the Koreish broke the treaty and Muhammed over-reacted to their attack. This isn't quite how you have it portrayed.

quote:

---

The doctrine he wrote based on that explain that treaties with non-Muslims can be established, and then broken when stronger so that Islam can advance. It also teaches that obligations, ethics, and honor must not stand in the way of establishing Islamic dominance in the region, and across the Earth.

---

Where can I read this doctrine?

quote:

---

That analogy is a difficult one to apply in a fundamentally religious area of the world.

---

Removing an irritant doesn't help in a fundamentally religious area of the world? That makes no sense.

quote:

---

I'm focusing on fundamental Islam, which controls most of the middle east.

---

In terms of government, that seems to be the case. But government is built on people. Public sentiment could help change that but right now we give everyone fuel for the flames. I'd like to see the violence stop. I just don't see it happening while Israel exists.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

So you ignore reliable history?

---

This is silly. You take as historical record material published by the very people with the most to hide, while discounting, for the very same reason, material published supporting the other side of the issue.

quote:

---

You missed the point entirely.

---

The point being? Official government sites are utterly reliable? Then admit that governments have 'bad elements.' How does one seperate the two? Apparently some magical force causes government web-sites to be unaffected by these 'bad elements.'I state:

quote:

---

1) the popularity of the site is irrelevant

---

You reply:

quote:

---

1) Information agreed upon is relevant.

---

What?????? Agreed upon? Agreed upon by whom? You?

quote:

---

2) That may be true. However, ultra-agenda propaganda is easy to spot.

---

Yes. It can always be identified simply by considering whether such propaganda agrees with you or not. If it does, it is historical. If not, then it is obviously ultra-agenda propaganda.

quote:

---

3) I'd trust the Israeli Foreign Ministry over a group of militant Islamic fundamentalists bent on my destruction.

---

Paranoid aren't we? I imagine that every Muslim is a militant Islamic fundamentalist, isn't that right? You make this judgement based on what? That they dislike having been kicked out of their country?

quote:

---

Promoting false information and anti-semetism makes them wrong.

---

Yes, it would. But you have only shown that Israel disagrees with the charges, and of course they would, just as most people would lie if caught stealing. That you find any semblance of rationality in assessing the situation based entirely -- as far as I can tell, you dismiss anything not Israeli-- upon the publications of one of the claimants is unbelievable.I doubt it will do good, but here is one christian's perspective on the issue. Page not found - CounterPunch.org

quote:

---

You seem unsure about that.

---

I am never 100% convinced of anything, but really, I was just trying to sugar coat what I was actually thinking.

quote:

---

Actually it's very easy to find anti-Israel rhetoric.

---

And just as easy to find Israeli rhetoric. But the truth is the real issue.How about some anti-israeli rhetoric from a jew? That will be fun. Page not found | Norman Finkelstein

quote:

---

Hmmm, let me point out some catch words and phrases from this site:

---

You can't be serious about this response? Pointing out that the man disagrees with you is not proof that he is wrong.

quote:

---

So history books and the history channel represent a major conspiracy of false history? Care to enlighten me?

---

History is far more political than you seem to realize. I have some serious doubts about the History Channel. But you follow neither as far as I can tell, opting for an modern myth instead.

quote:

---

What tragedy?

---

You know, I can't find any reason to believe in God, but when people say things like this I very much wish I could believe, because then I could believe in a day of judgement. As it is, I can only feel sad.

quote:

---

It's only absurd if the land was inhabited by a nation prior to the taking away of that land.

---

It was inhabited by people, who were dispossessed.

quote:

---

The statement about military conquest is false. The UN declared it, there were many jews living there, and it became Israel.

---

The UN sent an army. BTW, what exactly gives the UN the right to declare such a thing? Maybe you'd like it if they declared your home an Apache nation?

quote:

---

If I didn't, then why do you claim that I did?

---

I claimed that you were focussing on religion rather than on the creation of a country via military force.

quote:

---

nor do I consider the Zionists to be the cause of it.

---

Much like the Spanish explorers were not responsible for the deaths of all those Aztec?

quote:

---

Actually I was talking about buying land back legally. That was one of my points.

---

Starting in 1880 or so, some Jews did imigrate and buy land. Fine. This is not armed robbery.

quote:

---

So you live your entire life based on someone else's opinion, rather than examining the data yourself?

---

And this follows from my saying that distrust publically released military analysis?

quote:

---

No, but simply coming to a conclusion based on partial results and options is.

---

And this right after having admitted that "I don't know what exactly you've studied or haven't studied." So, don't make yourself look worse by making comments you cannot possible have information to support.

quote:

---

I haven't come to a conclusion about U.S. national policy. That was my own opinion.

---

Wow... how about that!!! So WAS THE COMMENT YOU CHASTISED BE OVER!

quote:

---

You're right, your problem with Israel is just that: Your problem.

---

Childish response.

quote:

---

So the warring factions of Islam and the war between fundamental Islam and the western secular cultures aren't problems?

---

I haven't said the other nations in the region are best buds. In fact, it is you who tend to lump them all together as "thier people" or some such nonsense.

quote:

---

Sources please? Many agree that Muhammed broke the treaty in the name of Allah to capture Mecca for Islam, because the people would not embrace his new religion.

---

No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch4s14.html------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

A christian point of view?

---

oops... It is a good piece though.

quote:

---

Why is it garbage you ask? Mr. Finkelstein, who i'm quite sure is HUGE in Canada, never once portrays Arabs poorly.

---

It is garbage because he does not portray the Arabs badly? Please kids....Do we hate Canada now too?

quote:

---

I really hope you don't think this is anything more than angry bias towards Israel.

---

Maybe I should take up your angry bias towards well... pretty much everyone?

quote:

---

You lost the spelling bee again. The correct word is ME, John. Not BE.

---

Well, you are freaking brilliant!!!! It happens. Big deal. I pick on people sometimes but I don't really care. Everybody spells badly on these boards. It is amazing to me that you and satcomm both take it so personal.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Why yes, I find both the government and local populous Canada quite offensive. They are the white trash of North America.

---

Well... that sorta proves my point.

quote:

---

Nice try to save face. Didn't work though. Hypocrite comes to mind.

---

I thought it was funny that satcomm said my statement was "rediculous" thats all.

quote:

---

Where can I find History books which speak of the truth? How do I discern between falsified history (or I believe the buzzword for this is revisionist history) and truthful history books?

---

Well, it helps to not accept on side's story a priori as truth. What is so amusing about this debate is that both you and satcomm discount anything pro-arab ( whether written by actual arab/muslims or not ) and accept uncritically the Israeli accounts of the conflict. It is just mindbending that you think this is rational. It also helps to take the opinions of those directly involved with a big lump of salt. You both seem to have cannonized the Israeli reports though. It just doesn't make sense.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Post a site that is not left wing.

---

'Left-wing" determined by what? Whether or not it agrees with you? That is the only criteria either you or satcomm have given. Not to mention that satcomm violates this idea by posting the extreme right-wing sites.

quote:

---

You are avoiding my question, however, how are you discerning the difference between revisionist history and truthful history?

---

???? Read what you can find of all sides and try to make sense of it. I wish there were a more accurate way to do it but I can't think of one.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

Ok, so you don't agree with written history, but agree with selective modern opinion. We have established that.

---

Who do you think wrote history? Magic Honest fairies who never tell lies?

quote:

---

There are official and formally recognized sites

---

What you've said makes sense, until one realizes that your 'official and formally recognized sites' are those most likely to be biased.

quote:

---

Agreed upon by the majority, or a group of people specialized in the study.

---

You are making sense, but your actions violate these very ideals. As far as I can tell you refuse to look at anything not for your position. Noble sentiment but it is all posture.

quote:

---

What you're suggesting is that nothing is true and everything is false, except your own opinion.

---

It is pretty clear that I am not the one with this opinion.

quote:

---

It can be identified whether or not it's merely someone's opinion to promote a new cause and rewrite history.

---

Apparently it cannot be so identified as you are blind to cases where just this sort of revision has been done. But since that revision fits your prejudice, it is history.

quote:

---

The way I see it, there are peaceful Muslims and then there are Islamic fundamentalists. Many of the bureaucracies in the middle east are ran by the latter. Many of the Muslims living here in America are the former. Both places have both. Terrorists are the latter.

---

Again, you make sense but your actions violate these ideals. Everything not pro-Israel you have dismissed as being Islamic fundamentalism. Think about the Jewish holocaust in Germany. Does writing about that atrocity make one an Jewish fundamentalist and hence unreliable? Nope. Yet writing about what the Jewish government and Zionist movements have done the local arab populations makes one an Islamic militant and an unreliable source. Its a double standard.

quote:

---

Judge not by what the people do, but by what the faith teaches. This makes me distrust Islam in general.

---

This is a very strange statement. I suppose that if I were to criticize Judaism for this same reason you'd not object?

quote:

---

That was never an independent and internationally recognized country. The people who lived there that were encouraged to leave after the formation of Israel were not originally from there.

---

What difference does it make whether Palestine was a nation or not? People who lived there were terrorized and evicted from their homes. The people who lived there were as native or more as the Jewish peoples who imigrated from around the world.

quote:

---

Because Israel is telling the truth.

---

Based of Israel's say-so? Unbelievable......

quote:

---

Again, this is the opinion of Mr. Neumann. I'm not going to take this to heart as being the end-all be-all fact of the matter.

---

I don't expect you to...

quote:

---

So you're just critical for the sake of being critical.

---

This doesn't follow.I am critical of everything but not for the sake of being critical.

quote:

---

Pointing out that he is an ultra liberal activist with a serious agenda does.

---

Then you should accept that Israel is an ultra pro-Israel source and discount its say so as well. But this you won't do.

quote:

---

I'm sure you found all text books in highschool and college to be political, as well? So you'll never know the truth, because everyone 'could' be lying to you. Neat.

---

I haven't read all text books. However, it is possible to track changes in textbooks as the years pass. For the most part, the changes are minor but, on some issues, the changes can be radical. Ideally, this would be the result of the emergence of new information-- documents and such.Yeah, I probably never will no the truth. Life sucks like that.

quote:

---

No, they were encouraged to leave by the surrounding nations.

---

... rather than stay and be shot. Yes, that makes sense.

quote:

---

The UN sent a peace-keeping force. The UN has no right to declare such a thing. But many people like you claim that they do have global governing authority.

---

1) Peace-keeping force == army
2) Yet it did, and you used this vey thing to justify the cration of Israel
3) There you go again making claims for which you cannot possibly have information. I am not a fan of the UN.

quote:

---

The issue is mostly religious and spiritual.

---

Religious in that the Zionist Jews and quite a few christians feel that Israel is a god-given right.

quote:

---

A different situation and a poor analogy.

---

hmmm... lets see.1) Spanish wanted gold. Zionists wanted land. Not a significant difference.2) Spanish were nice in the beginnning and traded for what they wanted. Zionist were also nice in the beginning and traded for what they wanted.3) As Spanish power, and numbers, increased it turned bloody. As Zionist power, and numbers, increased it turned bloody.4) When the Spanish got the upper hand, the indians were turned into slaves. When the Zionist got the upper hand-- ie Israel was declared a nation-- the arab populations that remained were chased out.

quote:

---

Moot. You distrust everything.

---

Lets review, because this makes no sense. How exactly does "Moot. You distrust everything." fit into this series?

quote:

---

I've been supporting my claims. You discount almost everything and follow up with character debates. Sounds like smear tactics to me.

---

You have been supporting your claims by insisting that Israel is blameless because it says so, while discounting anything contrary to those claims. That is just silly. Of course, you claim to believe israel because it is telling the truth but the only proof has been the claims made by israel. That is circular.I am not aware of my discounting anything. I know what Israel claims, and it doesn't hold under the weight of the evidence.

quote:

---

It should also be noted that many of the people from Quraysh were jews who refused to accept Mohammed's new theism.

---

It looks to me like the Quraysh were an arab tribe, a kind of large family group. Calling them jews doesn't make sense.

quote:

---

Let's have a history lesson, shall we?

---

I hope you spent some time reading your own lesson plan.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

---

I realize it's the popular thing to be pro Palestinian.

---

Don't be dismissive. It is irritating. I don't do anything for the sake of popularity and I don't appreciate the inference.

quote:

---

What I see is Barack offered them an incredible deal of land and control of half of Jerusalem...

---

The thief is offering to give back some of the spoils and you call this an incredible deal? If it were me, I'd be offended and it looks like the palestinians were.

quote:

---

Honestly, WTF? Are you telling me that the Navajo have the right to go into a local Safeway and blow everyone to shit because a burgeoning U.S. government gave them some land instead of kicking them to the curb and leaving them to fend for themselves? That makes no sense to me.

---

It makes no sense to me either. Good thing I said nothing similar. The argument has been made that Israel rightfully belongs to the Jews because they were there first-- 2000 years ago. It follows then, by the same logic, that North America belongs to the Native Americans because they were here first. So do we give it back? Should the UN carve up the US and give it back to its rightful owners? And if the UN did so, what would happen? Answer: Lots of americans would fight back-- that is, lots of americans would do precisely what the palestinians are doing and precisely what the palestinians are being criticised for doing.

quote:

---

The Palistianians aren't fighting for freedom.

---

They are fighting for what was stolen from them. If Mexico, by some miracle, suddenly took Texas back and kicked everyone out ( except for the Mexicans already living here ) would we be fighting for freedom or for the land that was stolen?Would you then argue, as has been done in the case of Israel, that Mexico had a right to take Texas because some Mexicans already lived here?Suppose Mexico made the generous offer to return the pan-handle to the dispossessed Texans, would that make you feel better about the situation?

quote:

---

Are Israeli children taught to hate the Arabs?

---

Hang around many Israeli's? I have been lately. The hatred I've seen is pretty intense. The literature is quite incendiary.

quote:

---

If Israel wanted, they could have whiped out all the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors by now if that was their intention.

---

Doubtful. Israel doesn't have that much power without international support. All out slaughter would erode that support and, in fact, that very thing seems to be happening. Israel has to look good to the outside world.

quote:

---

They simply want to exist in peace.

---

On stolen land. You guys seem to miss that fact.It clearly is not. They simply want to exist in peace. If anyone harms them, they will do whatever is neccessary...just like ANY government...just like any individual.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

So... you really have nothing intelligent to say then?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 01-31-2003]