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Author | Topic: Creationism, Evolution and the Public Schools | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
Palestinians were kicked out of their homes by force in 1957(?). And Isreal was created. This was done on orders from the UN and by UN armies. The country of Israel is a insult to human rights. This isn't anti-semitism, just fact. I have no problem with Jewish people, but the country of Israel is another issue altogether.
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And this is what? Justification for doing it again? See, we are supposed to learn from history....
quote: Irrelevant. And curious that you provide no proof of your assertion. Tell you what, you tell me that if the UN decided to kick you out and give your home to foreigners you'd be OK with that, and I'll believe that you are serious. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: So, lets see. Your argument is that after the palestinians were kicked out of thier homeland and forced to flee into OTHER PEOPLE'S countries, they have been treated badly and so Isreali occupation is OK? Are you insane? What you have cited is yet another example of the damage the creation of Israel has done. It is not proof that the Palestinians are better off with Isreal than without.
quote: Who told you this? Guess you just made it up. Any country I could move to was at some point taken from someone else. That cannot be escaped, nor is it a justification for continuing the practice.
quote: And what exactly was necessary about the creation of Isreal?
quote: ummm.... hello... Isreal is the invader not the defender.
quote: Now I know you are insane.
quote: I didn't see the post. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: And that nation fell when? Maybe you should check your facts. circa 1000 First Isrealite monarchy under David. 926 bce The united monarchy cracks into two -- Isreal with its capitol of Samaria and Judah with its capitol of Isreal. 722 bce Isreal is destroyed by the Neo-Assyrians and the ten northern tribes dispersed. 584 bce Jerusalem is sacked the Babylonian exile begins. 539 bce Cyrus the Persian defeats Babylon 333 bce Alexander the Great defeats the Persians. 64 bce The Romans take Syro-palestine 66-74 ce the Jewish war against Rome. The Jews lose. You can't possibly make of this some kind of claim of ownership. The land has been taken and retaken multiple times since the Jewish Monarchy. Besides, why not give the land to the people the Jews took it from? I mean, they had it first.
quote: This does not change the fact they were thrown out of their homes by an army. Besides which, you have your facts wrong. During the British Mandate period coins were issued with Palestine inscribed on them.
Ap-agenda.org - Menyajikan Informasi Seputar Lifestyle & Judi Online quote: As for the first claim, you don't know your history. As to the second, various ethnic groups have had a continual presence in the area. Big deal.
quote: "Arab" isn't a nation or a government, it is an ethnic group. You could just as easily argue that 'africans' have never controlled Africa. I fail to see the relevance. It doesn't matter much who controlled the area. If it wasn't Isreal, you don't have an unbroken chain of ownership.
quote: There hasn't been a Jewish state for this entire 3,300 years, but only for a brief period of it. How can this have been the capitol for 3300 years?
quote: What does it matter?
quote: Again, irrelevant. We aren't discussing religion. We are discussing armed forces kicking people out of there home and giving those homes to people who, for the most part hadn't lived there for hundreds or thousands of years.
quote: LOL....... why is this relevant?
quote: hmmmm..... so the Arab leaders, seeing that things were going to get bloody, told people to flee and you take this as a VOLUNTARY exodus?
quote: Again, you are mixing ethnic groups and religious affilations with governments. What are you talking about specifically? When and where?
quote: Why is this relevant? hmmm... lets see. Jews kick out 630,000 people and force them into foreign countries. This causes a backlash of violence against Jews, who flee to Isreal-- ironically, the cause of the problem to start with. Am I close?
quote: What? And "Arab" isn't a country and "Arab lands" is not a government.
quote: If it were "there own people's lands" they wouldn't be refugees would they? This is absurd. Arab is not a government. Arabs do not belond to the same country/political group any more than Spanish speaking Christians belong to the same country/political group. Look at S. America. How many countries are there? How many speak Spanish? How many are Roman Catholic? Yet they are not the same 'peoples'
quote: ummm.... that was the point of Israel wasn't it? It is a place for Jews who need somewhere to go. That is why they kicked everybody out. That is why they still keep trying to expand. This is not the same situation the palestinian refugees are in. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is the myth most people seem to believe.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www/palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story151.html quote: Israel is in a precarious position. Basically, every nation around them is an enemy. They exist because the US and the UN back them. The US, vor example, has armed them with the best weapons we have, including nuclear missiles. If they push things too far, they destroy themselves. I think the tactic is to hassle the Palestinians just enough to chase them off but not enough to get on the bad side of the US and the UN. As for the latter, they can get away with a lot because the US wants an ally in the mid-east. Israel has to play that card. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I am mistaken about the nukes, but not about the US arming Israel. We aren't the only ones doing so, of course.
Page not found | Council for Arab-British Understanding ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 01-28-2003]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: What kind of response is that? Since when is the truth a 'gospel'?
quote: Kinda like how you cited an ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MILITARY SITE to support your claims. It can't get any more hypocritical than that!!! Thanks for the laugh. Maybe you didn't notice that the article in question was a Washington Reports article. The url given is No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm but it seems to no longer work. You are denying the blatantly obvious. You may as well deny the jewish holocost.
quote: ... due to aid from the US.
quote: Noble sentiment. I have no qualms with the motivation but with the method. The UN had no right to give that land to anyone, most especially to people who hadn't lived there in centuries for the most part.
quote: Helluva response there. What do you suppose would happen if the US cut all diplomatic and economic ties to Israel? hmmmm....? Everyone around them would attack. And nuclear weapons or not, they lose.
quote: ummmm.... are you sincerely foolish enough to take Israeli public relations material at face value? Oh.... thanks for the link... yet another good laugh!!! The irony is killing me.
quote: Yes, coming to such a conclusion would take a bit of thinking wouldn't it?
quote: So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.
quote: Well, you've got something right. But you go on to argue against yourself, claiming that the problem is religious rather than the result of the military conquest of Palestine.
quote: Don't kid yourself. The US could wipe out the whole mid-east, just as we did Hitler's Germany in WW2 should the nation's population ever be convinced that it is the thing to do. The need for Israel is not military, it is political. And I'll wager that any politician who suggests that we stop supporting Israel will be crucified by the fundamentalists who consider Israel a God-ordained nation.
quote: No? Really? Kinda like now, eh? Israel in no way protects us from treachorous regimes. It, as you say, is the REASON for much of the hatred aimed at the US.
quote: No. And I don't have time to wade through all of the references to David Koresh. Care to give me a hint?
quote: I never said they would just "make friends." But removing the thorn is bound to help the wound heal.
quote: Yes, I believe you and it isn't hard to find Islamic religious leaders call for an end to the hatred and strife. You are focusing on a subset of Islam, not on the whole.
quote: Metaphor is beyond your grasp as well? Sad.... ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: hmmm.... metaphor and sarcasm, eh? Well, you are bad a both. And you can't spell.
quote: Yes, like all very reliable data put out by the offending parties.
quote: And we know how honest governments are. LOL... the joke gets better.
quote: LOL.... 1) the popularity of the site is irrelevant2) that the information is biased is only your pronouncement based upon ------ 3) Information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda!!!! ta-ta-da!!!! The ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY, man!!! Talk about specific group with a specific agenda. It just gets better. How can you stand yourself? If I were you, I'd never stop giggling. quote: 'k.
quote: Why yes indeed, they may print a story we don't want to hear. God forbid!!!!
quote: None of which makes the site or the reports wrong. It may just be that they are telling the truth. Am I smelling some well-cooked bigotry? You sure can make Muslim-American sound like a slur. Want we should kick 'em all out? It isn't hard to find the information, if you care to look. Is Robert C. Miller an ultra biased Muslim-American too?
Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict quote: Nope, but it strikes me that you should spend some time there.
quote: Sad that you are defending a false history.
quote: Yes. It is the irony that strikes me. I doubt you'd deny the tragedy of Nazi Germany, but you adamantly deny the tragedy surrounding Israel's creation.
quote: LOL.... so lets give it to the Philistines!
quote: That was two thousand years ago! Lets give North America back the various indian nations. We'll give Mexico back to the Mayans-- there are still a number of descendants there. Give back the Philipines. Hell, we'll just uproot everybody and sort the whole world by ancestry!!!! Your argument is absurd.
quote: Yes, but we aren't talking about buying land and moving back are we? I have no problem with that. But we are talking about undeniable military conquest. The jews in Palestine were in no way a majority and took the country by force after the UN declaration in 1948.
quote: I have a very low tolerance for idiocy.
quote: And you know what I have studied? Don't make yourself look worse by making comments you cannot possible have information to support. Yes, other countries have fought and lost -- against an Israel that has US backing. But the speculation concerns what would happen without US backing so really, your comment is meaningless.
quote: You are joking?
quote: What a very strange world you must live in to think that a nations' publicly posted information isn't controlled. Do you think you are really getting Israeli Defense Force material rather than something the Israeli government wants you to see?
quote: Absolutely.
quote: Interesting, but what is the point? Other than to highlight that governments ain't all that trustworthy? Why else would such a sight be needed to "challenge excessive government secrecy and to promote public oversight"? In a way, it contradicts much of your claims about the reliability of the information you have presented.
quote: hmmm.... considering the options and coming to a conclusion is basking in ignorance?
quote: Surely you must see how you've contradicted yourself here? You first claim that we protect Israel cause we promised, then agree that conveniently breaking promises is good strategy. You must also be basking in ignorance because you have just come to a conclusion about US national policy.
quote: You didn't. That is the problem. You appear to be blind to this simple fact. Certainly there are religious elements, like the Zionists who seeded this mess back in the 1880s or so. But it is basically the military conquest of land that is the problem or that is my problem with Israel.
quote: Its a good point. But I don't think it is critical to have Israel, especially given that it is a major case of problems in the mid-east to start with. Wheren't you just chiding me about claiming the "US wants an ally in the mid-east"? You've pretty much said the same thing here.
quote: Aren't you a pleasant chap?
quote: From what I can tell, the Koreish broke the treaty and Muhammed over-reacted to their attack. This isn't quite how you have it portrayed.
quote: Where can I read this doctrine?
quote: Removing an irritant doesn't help in a fundamentally religious area of the world? That makes no sense.
quote: In terms of government, that seems to be the case. But government is built on people. Public sentiment could help change that but right now we give everyone fuel for the flames. I'd like to see the violence stop. I just don't see it happening while Israel exists. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: This is silly. You take as historical record material published by the very people with the most to hide, while discounting, for the very same reason, material published supporting the other side of the issue.
quote: The point being? Official government sites are utterly reliable? Then admit that governments have 'bad elements.' How does one seperate the two? Apparently some magical force causes government web-sites to be unaffected by these 'bad elements.' I state:
quote: You reply:
quote: What?????? Agreed upon? Agreed upon by whom? You?
quote: Yes. It can always be identified simply by considering whether such propaganda agrees with you or not. If it does, it is historical. If not, then it is obviously ultra-agenda propaganda.
quote: Paranoid aren't we? I imagine that every Muslim is a militant Islamic fundamentalist, isn't that right? You make this judgement based on what? That they dislike having been kicked out of their country?
quote: Yes, it would. But you have only shown that Israel disagrees with the charges, and of course they would, just as most people would lie if caught stealing. That you find any semblance of rationality in assessing the situation based entirely -- as far as I can tell, you dismiss anything not Israeli-- upon the publications of one of the claimants is unbelievable. I doubt it will do good, but here is one christian's perspective on the issue.
Page not found - CounterPunch.org quote: I am never 100% convinced of anything, but really, I was just trying to sugar coat what I was actually thinking.
quote: And just as easy to find Israeli rhetoric. But the truth is the real issue. How about some anti-israeli rhetoric from a jew? That will be fun.
Page not found | Norman Finkelstein quote: You can't be serious about this response? Pointing out that the man disagrees with you is not proof that he is wrong.
quote: History is far more political than you seem to realize. I have some serious doubts about the History Channel. But you follow neither as far as I can tell, opting for an modern myth instead.
quote: You know, I can't find any reason to believe in God, but when people say things like this I very much wish I could believe, because then I could believe in a day of judgement. As it is, I can only feel sad.
quote: It was inhabited by people, who were dispossessed.
quote: The UN sent an army. BTW, what exactly gives the UN the right to declare such a thing? Maybe you'd like it if they declared your home an Apache nation?
quote: I claimed that you were focussing on religion rather than on the creation of a country via military force.
quote: Much like the Spanish explorers were not responsible for the deaths of all those Aztec?
quote: Starting in 1880 or so, some Jews did imigrate and buy land. Fine. This is not armed robbery.
quote: And this follows from my saying that distrust publically released military analysis?
quote: And this right after having admitted that "I don't know what exactly you've studied or haven't studied." So, don't make yourself look worse by making comments you cannot possible have information to support.
quote: Wow... how about that!!! So WAS THE COMMENT YOU CHASTISED BE OVER!
quote: Childish response.
quote: I haven't said the other nations in the region are best buds. In fact, it is you who tend to lump them all together as "thier people" or some such nonsense.
quote: No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch4s14.html ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: oops... It is a good piece though.
quote: It is garbage because he does not portray the Arabs badly? Please kids.... Do we hate Canada now too?
quote: Maybe I should take up your angry bias towards well... pretty much everyone?
quote: Well, you are freaking brilliant!!!! It happens. Big deal. I pick on people sometimes but I don't really care. Everybody spells badly on these boards. It is amazing to me that you and satcomm both take it so personal. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Well... that sorta proves my point.
quote: I thought it was funny that satcomm said my statement was "rediculous" thats all.
quote: Well, it helps to not accept on side's story a priori as truth. What is so amusing about this debate is that both you and satcomm discount anything pro-arab ( whether written by actual arab/muslims or not ) and accept uncritically the Israeli accounts of the conflict. It is just mindbending that you think this is rational. It also helps to take the opinions of those directly involved with a big lump of salt. You both seem to have cannonized the Israeli reports though. It just doesn't make sense. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: 'Left-wing" determined by what? Whether or not it agrees with you? That is the only criteria either you or satcomm have given. Not to mention that satcomm violates this idea by posting the extreme right-wing sites.
quote: ???? Read what you can find of all sides and try to make sense of it. I wish there were a more accurate way to do it but I can't think of one. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Who do you think wrote history? Magic Honest fairies who never tell lies?
quote: What you've said makes sense, until one realizes that your 'official and formally recognized sites' are those most likely to be biased.
quote: You are making sense, but your actions violate these very ideals. As far as I can tell you refuse to look at anything not for your position. Noble sentiment but it is all posture.
quote: It is pretty clear that I am not the one with this opinion.
quote: Apparently it cannot be so identified as you are blind to cases where just this sort of revision has been done. But since that revision fits your prejudice, it is history.
quote: Again, you make sense but your actions violate these ideals. Everything not pro-Israel you have dismissed as being Islamic fundamentalism. Think about the Jewish holocaust in Germany. Does writing about that atrocity make one an Jewish fundamentalist and hence unreliable? Nope. Yet writing about what the Jewish government and Zionist movements have done the local arab populations makes one an Islamic militant and an unreliable source. Its a double standard.
quote: This is a very strange statement. I suppose that if I were to criticize Judaism for this same reason you'd not object?
quote: What difference does it make whether Palestine was a nation or not? People who lived there were terrorized and evicted from their homes. The people who lived there were as native or more as the Jewish peoples who imigrated from around the world.
quote: Based of Israel's say-so? Unbelievable......
quote: I don't expect you to...
quote: This doesn't follow. I am critical of everything but not for the sake of being critical.
quote: Then you should accept that Israel is an ultra pro-Israel source and discount its say so as well. But this you won't do.
quote: I haven't read all text books. However, it is possible to track changes in textbooks as the years pass. For the most part, the changes are minor but, on some issues, the changes can be radical. Ideally, this would be the result of the emergence of new information-- documents and such. Yeah, I probably never will no the truth. Life sucks like that.
quote: ... rather than stay and be shot. Yes, that makes sense.
quote: 1) Peace-keeping force == army2) Yet it did, and you used this vey thing to justify the cration of Israel 3) There you go again making claims for which you cannot possibly have information. I am not a fan of the UN. quote: Religious in that the Zionist Jews and quite a few christians feel that Israel is a god-given right.
quote: hmmm... lets see. 1) Spanish wanted gold. Zionists wanted land. Not a significant difference. 2) Spanish were nice in the beginnning and traded for what they wanted. Zionist were also nice in the beginning and traded for what they wanted. 3) As Spanish power, and numbers, increased it turned bloody. As Zionist power, and numbers, increased it turned bloody. 4) When the Spanish got the upper hand, the indians were turned into slaves. When the Zionist got the upper hand-- ie Israel was declared a nation-- the arab populations that remained were chased out.
quote: Lets review, because this makes no sense.
satcomm:So you live your entire life based on someone else's opinion, rather than examining the data yourself? John:And this follows from my saying that distrust publically released military analysis? How exactly does "Moot. You distrust everything." fit into this series?
quote: You have been supporting your claims by insisting that Israel is blameless because it says so, while discounting anything contrary to those claims. That is just silly. Of course, you claim to believe israel because it is telling the truth but the only proof has been the claims made by israel. That is circular. I am not aware of my discounting anything. I know what Israel claims, and it doesn't hold under the weight of the evidence.
quote: It looks to me like the Quraysh were an arab tribe, a kind of large family group. Calling them jews doesn't make sense.
quote: I hope you spent some time reading your own lesson plan. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Don't be dismissive. It is irritating. I don't do anything for the sake of popularity and I don't appreciate the inference.
quote: The thief is offering to give back some of the spoils and you call this an incredible deal? If it were me, I'd be offended and it looks like the palestinians were.
quote: It makes no sense to me either. Good thing I said nothing similar. The argument has been made that Israel rightfully belongs to the Jews because they were there first-- 2000 years ago. It follows then, by the same logic, that North America belongs to the Native Americans because they were here first. So do we give it back? Should the UN carve up the US and give it back to its rightful owners? And if the UN did so, what would happen? Answer: Lots of americans would fight back-- that is, lots of americans would do precisely what the palestinians are doing and precisely what the palestinians are being criticised for doing.
quote: They are fighting for what was stolen from them. If Mexico, by some miracle, suddenly took Texas back and kicked everyone out ( except for the Mexicans already living here ) would we be fighting for freedom or for the land that was stolen? Would you then argue, as has been done in the case of Israel, that Mexico had a right to take Texas because some Mexicans already lived here? Suppose Mexico made the generous offer to return the pan-handle to the dispossessed Texans, would that make you feel better about the situation?
quote: Hang around many Israeli's? I have been lately. The hatred I've seen is pretty intense. The literature is quite incendiary.
quote: Doubtful. Israel doesn't have that much power without international support. All out slaughter would erode that support and, in fact, that very thing seems to be happening. Israel has to look good to the outside world.
quote: On stolen land. You guys seem to miss that fact. It clearly is not. They simply want to exist in peace. If anyone harms them, they will do whatever is neccessary...just like ANY government...just like any individual. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
So... you really have nothing intelligent to say then?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 01-31-2003]
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