Creationism, Evolution and the Public Schools

Now that the subject has been broached, I don't understand all of the anti-semitism that is going around. Why does the the liberal press and the EU hate Israel so much? Doesn't Israel have the same right as anyone else to exist and govern thmeselves according to their own manner? Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies...and there are no other Jewish states, so, WTF? Why do people feel that Israel needs to be divided and shared with a hostile enemy? Jordan is a Palistinian state, so there is no excuse to deny Israel a homeland. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your view. I would like to correct a few of your "facts".1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the "Oral Qu'aran" - in their oral tradition, The Prophet stopped his night journey at "the edge" - at the edge of the Temple mount.7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.8. Arab and Jewish refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.9. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.10. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.11. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

Uh..read the post. It begins after your initial response. I think it adresses any argument you can throw at it....i dunno, maybe you can find some other approach, but nearly all of your statements to jd are incorrect.

To heck with it...here it is again....1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the "Oral Qu'aran" - in their oral tradition, The Prophet stopped his night journey at "the edge" - at the edge of the Temple mount.7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.9. Arab and Jewish refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.refute the facts if you can[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 01-27-2003]

For the record, this thread is way of of topic for this forum, but since I started it, let me put my two cents in....again..I realize it's the popular thing to be pro Palestinian. The liberal media portrays them as underdogs being oppressed by a brutal government, but I don't see this.What I see is Barack offered them an incredible deal of land and control of half of Jerusalem...the Palestinian response was to step up homocide bombings. Stop...... There was reasonable peace in Israel until Barack tried to give the farm away. If you're pro Palestinian, explain how when you have nothing, you are quiet, but when someone extends their hand in a gesture of peace, you attack and destroy people in a marketplace or blow up a disco full of people.Honestly, WTF? Are you telling me that the Navajo have the right to go into a local Safeway and blow everyone to shit because a burgeoning U.S. government gave them some land instead of kicking them to the curb and leaving them to fend for themselves? That makes no sense to me.The Palistianians aren't fighting for freedom. The PLO charter calls for the absolute destruction of Israel. THAT'S why they fight. Are Israeli children taught to hate the Arabs? Are they taught that God is pleased when an Arab dies? The answer is NO. But That's exactly what the Arabs are teaching THIER children...Refer to Al Jazerra if you don't wanna believe that. In case you didn't know it already, Al Jazeera is an Arabic news agency of the magnitude of CNN.If Israel wanted, they could have whiped out all the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors by now if that was their intention. It clearly is not. They simply want to exist in peace. If anyone harms them, they will do whatever is neccessary...just like ANY government...just like any individual.I say that if the Palestinians want peace, be peaceful...but if they want war, the consequences be on their own heads.[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 01-31-2003]

**sigh** i know im arguing with a rock. You can't formulate and argument with duel ideals. Are you so stupid to think that the palesinians just grew out of the ground?? I think we've exhausted the bounderies of your wit and psuedo-intelligence. You don't have anything remotely resembling knowlege about this subject. I suspect that you get the majority of your information from MTV. Living with your mother can help you live on the wages McDonalds pays you, im sure....but your world view from the deep fryer is kindergarten at best.You have been presented with reason, logic, and facts...and your response has been childish and deliberately ignorant...i say deliberately, becasue I can't imagine anyone naturaly this stupid...(that's a compliment)You have been soundly spanked on this forum and this discussion and it's time for us to move on. Let us part amicably and say "we just don't agree" while secretly knowing in our hearts that you are a retard. I wish you well and hope you get promoted to the drive through window.[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 01-31-2003]

Not enough one-syllable words to explain it to you...so, no.

I can appreciate your concern, and typically I would agree with you...except this discussion has only garnered hostility and personal attacks to begin with. As for the forum rules, here is a quote from the administrator.

quote:

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I saw a reference to the forum guidelines somewhere above, so in case anyone has forgotten or isn't sure, the Free For All forum is unmoderated. It is the only unmoderated forum on the site, and one of only two that do not require registration (the other is Welcome, Visitors!). Participate here at your own risk.

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Shilo,You may be right, but John really IS a boob.... Don't kill me, I'm only the messenger.I'm glad you feel free to disagree with me, but I'm more glad that the state of Israel is not affected by you or those of like mind.

BTW Shilo,What association do you have with the shilo project?[This message has been edited by Arachnid, 01-31-2003]

Zipzip,Thank you for that awesome post. Many of us have tried to share that exact information, but I'm afraid your words fall on deaf ears where john is concerned. If you say one thing, he'll say another. If you show him proof he'll ignore it. It's a frustrating way to debate. I think we all can appreciate a heated discussion, but some people choose to ignore the facts in favor of MTV idealism. I am frankly appalled by the anti-semite attitudes that are so prevalent these days. I appreciate your refreshing and accurate stance which is decidedly unpopular these days.

Shraf,That was a lame perspective. Israeli Palestinians DO vote. Why don't you call our government's democracy into question because we do not let the Canadians vote for president?

Hey gang,I've created a new topic in the Free for All forum called Israel vs. Palestine. Now we can free up this forum for it's intended audience. Happy posting