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Junior Member (Idle past 6056 days) Posts: 21 From: Brownsburg, Indiana, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Knowing God | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Dubious Drewski Member (Idle past 2559 days) Posts: 73 From: Alberta Joined: |
PTB, I was once a very strong Christian. As a child, when I knelt down to say prayers each night, it just felt right. I pictured God or Jesus above me and hearing me. It was as simple as that. There's not much else to look for, as far as I know.
Of course, I was a child then. I understand the world now, and this makes those types of beliefs impossible for me. Forgive me, but it seems there are a thousand and one religions and just as many ways to "know" a God. You might just get the comfort and satisfaction you are looking for if you just focus on being moral and devote yourself to finding the greatest happiness for you and the people around you. It does it for me, anyway. And on another note:
quote:You should have controlled yourself there, Mark24. I do agree with you, but I don't care to read the rest of your post because you completely discredited yourself. Be careful. OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD [edit] I apologize, but was I really that much off topic? Yikes, this is hard for the average fellow to join in the conversation. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning Edited by Drewsky, : Quick whine.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
What is a relationship with Jesus like? Although the idea of the Trinity can't really be understood we are told what some of the characteristics of that relationship are. And one of those characteristics is the existance of a father/son relationship. Both the fathers and the sons desire is that we would have the same kind of relationship that Jesus has with the father. Although Jesus is God his position was that of a son - a little like you and your kids are all human (of equal importance) yet their relationship with you is father/child. Jesus is described as the "first born amongst many brothers". We are to become brothers/sisters of him in the sense that we are to become "children of God". "Adopted children" of God in fact - Jesus being the Fathers 'natural' offspring. So to understand a little more of what it is to have relationship with God we should look at our own relationships with children. This from the perspective either of not having that relationship with God yet or having that relationship with him but being in a position of having forgotten how the relationship is meant to be. It would be helpful to all to look at our children in their relation to us to help us cast our own minds back to the relationship we had with our parents when we were very young. I understand that for many those relationships were troubled and unhappy. In that case, all a person could do is look at some idealised father/son relationships for direction: the better relationships our friends had with their parents perhaps, or ones that we have seen in the movies and possibly envied. Some of classic characterisitics of such good parent/child relationships would be; - the child hero worships their parent. Their parent (up to an age at least) is the centre of their universe. The parent can do everything in the childs eyes. They are God in fact. - the child recognises that he is totally dependant on his parent for anything that it has. All good things stem from the parent: the child not having the means to support itself. - the parent disciplines the child for its own good. The child of loving parents can take the discipline and know that the parent still loves it. - the child wants to please its parent. Its parent expressing pleasure in it is the chief delight of the child. - the parent is the one who picks the child up when it is hurt, who tends to wounds and assures that all is okay. The parent is the one who "wipes every tear from your eye". - the parent is the one whose expression of concern and love and all the rest, comfirms to the child that he/she is worthwhile. This is a very special category of total dependance. The child has no sense of intrinsic worth bar that which comes to it from the parent. - the parent is the one who steps in to protect (with its own life if necessary) the child against danger. This fierce protectiveness also confirms worth in the child. It also makes the child feel safe and protected. - the parent is in a better position to know what is good for the child and what is not good. The child will have its own ideas: perhaps it wants to stuff its face with sweets because to its mind sweets are good. The parent will seek to protect the child from itself. - the parent is the one who introduces excitement and pleasure and fun and games into the childs life. The parent spots characteristics individual to the child and seeks to stimulate these interests. They don't force the children to do things that they patently have no interest or ability in, but instead they seek to nurture and develop the things that are of interest and within the ability of the child. The good parent sets reasonable, thought out challenges and is the one the child looks to for approval when those challenges are met or is the one who picks the child up and dusts it off with encouragement and love when the challenge isn't met. - the relationship between parents and children are the most loving relationships that can potentially exist. Not even love for a spouse can trump the love a person has for their own children. Their own flesh and blood. Now children are not likely to be in a position to know these things - they are kids after all. But they can pick up the sense of these things even as children. They are wired for it. We, as adults are in a fortunate position. As adults we are well able to understand all these things about parent/child relationships. We are ideally equipped to become children of God for we know what our position should be - we have been children and parents ourselves. 'All we need to do' is project our own experiences of being both children and adults onto God/us in order to understand the relationship as it is meant to be. And our place that relationship. Us as children. God, as Father, displaying perfect parenting characteristics. If a person has enjoyed their experience as a child then they can know something of what it is like to have a relationship with God. Its being a beloved child again. What could be better! And if a person has not had an enjoyable childhood then just wait: your in for a pleasurable surprise! All that has to happen is for you to be adopted into his family if you haven't yet been.
quote: Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
All of your parent/child analogies are great. Following this analogy thru however, what parent would actively condemn their children to enternal suffering for not believing something? All the while withholding evidence of that something.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Don't confuse religion and dogma with knowing God. Just as a child matures into an adult and then understands the actions of their parents, we mature spiritually to understand and "know" God and to know the difference between "knowing" God and practicing religion. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
All of your parent/child analogies are great. Following this analogy thru however, what parent would actively condemn their children to enternal suffering for not believing something? People who will go to hell are those who have never been adopted as children of God. First be adopted then have God as you father. That's the natural sequence that occurs in adoption and the one given by the parent/child picture in the Bible.
All the while withholding evidence of that something. He doesn't withhold evidence. He gives evidence sufficient. Sufficient in the sense that he deems it sufficient. And if he deems it sufficient then it is. If he deems that fair then it is. What hoops we would like God to jump through are irrelevant. Indeed we forget that God owes us nothing at all. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Just as a child matures into an adult and then understands the actions of their parents, we mature spiritually to understand and "know" God and to know the difference between "knowing" God and practicing religion. Paul, who was in a slightly better postion to comment seems to disagree with you.
quote: A child can, through experience, learn to trust and respect and obey their parents or they may be an unruly, disobedient child. But a child they remain. There is no picture in the Bible of growing up so as to be independant of the parent as happens in real life. Always little children. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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CK Member (Idle past 4156 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote: Whenever you describe your bullyboy god - I always get the image of a disturbed father looking for an excuse to beat his children.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Whenever you describe your bullyboy god - I always get the image of a disturbed father looking for an excuse to beat his children. I'm not surprised you say that given your position as a person at emnity with God. Children of God have a different perspective. All they see is his love poured out on them. You may not see yourself as at emnity with God - given you do not believe he exists. That doesn't matter very much. What matters is how he considers you.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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CK Member (Idle past 4156 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
You misrepresent my position let me correct what you are saying:
quote: That's better. As for my enmity towards gods I have none - they don't exist. I have enmity towards your Christian concept of a god and all the damage that you people do in the name of that construct and trying to force other to conform to your construct. I have enmity for your organizations and the people in it not the fictional figurehead. I might as well as have enmity for Galactus or the Wicked Witch in the west - it's a nonsense proposition and only that only seems to make sense to you religious people.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
iano writes: You may not see yourself as at emnity with God - given you do not believe he exists. That doesn't matter very much. What matters is how he considers you. you should hear what Binky, my imaginary friend, thinks of you. Not much I tell you! What's that I hear you say? It doesn't matter an iota to you what my imaginary friend thinks of you ? Well, ditto.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Sorry CK. A slip. I shouldn't have engaged with you. We both know there is no point at this time
Good Call. OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
People who will go to hell are those who have never been adopted as children of God. Once again you describe your godlet as cruel and uncaring. Now you are saying that the very god that created someone must then adopt the child or the child is condemned. God created the child therefor God is automatically the father. The parent of a child has a responsibility for the upbringing and welfare of that child. If a child needs to be adopted by god as its father to avoid condemnation then it is only because god has failed in his responsibilities in the first place. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Now you are saying that the very god that created someone must then adopt the child or the child is condemned. I think the science of how someone is physically created has been well documented. As for God creating the non-physical aspect of a person then this...
God created the child therefor God is automatically the father. ..needs some substantiation.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Not the first time Paul and I disagree. lol
But I don't feel Paul was writing to spiritually mature audience. He was dealing with people new in Christ.
quote: I didn't say the spiritually mature are independent of God, but I also don't feel that the books of the Bible are written to the spiritually mature. Being spiritually mature doesn't mean we know the mind of God or presume to be God's counsellor, just as being an adult doesn't mean I know my parents' minds or presume to be their counsellor. But I can reach a level of maturity to understand their parental actions. I do feel it is possible to reach a level of spiritual maturity to understand God and our place in knowing God. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jar said:
Now you are saying that the very god that created someone must then adopt the child or the child is condemned. to which iano replied:
quote: Look at the beginning of the Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. Note the phrase "maker of heaven and earth,of all that is, seen and unseen." of all that is I'm sorry iano but the god you describe is simply not worth knowing, a bling-bling pimp daddy that denies he is the parent of some of his children, that gets pissed if he is dissed, that rewards or punishes his children based not on what they do but whether or not they suck up to him. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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