Lying For Jesus Award

Great song from The Life of Brian, "Always look on the Bright Side of Life."It's comforting, isn't it to take your position. Look at the good saints.Unfortunately that is NOT what the outside world sees. For every Mother Theresa there are a dozen Gene Scotts or Benny Hinns or Jerry Falwells.Christianity today has the most advanced and vast propaganda network of ANY entity. It has it's own Networks, it's own Satellite systems, and is dominated by the Cult of Ignorance.Remember, the money is there, the ignorant will pay.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I, as a white person watching the news in Philadelphia, am bombarded with reports of African-American violence, while the good and decent actions of black people do not make it to the spotlight. Why is anti-christian sentiment the last acceptable prejudice? Yes, the Salesians were founded IIRC by St John Bosco. I have recieved their newsletters and my family has supported them for as long as I can remember. One thing at a time. We have denounced Waco, the KKK, slavery, and forced marriage of young girls to polygamists. We have denounced end of the world fear tactics, corruption of the priesthood, and the actions of many christain leaders of government or false prophets like Hovind. It was a fellow christian who turned him in to the IRS, remember?Christians are no different than the rest of humanity. We are ALL tarred with the same brush.

Sure, the competition for Preacher of the Month is highly motivated by the desire for monetary gain and personal recognition. It is a huge turn off to see those campaigns which preach financial gain through prayer. They are on telly almost every day.

O.k., then, why do Christians pretend to have all the answers?

First of all, not all Christians behave or believe the same way. Many Christians believe that Jesus (the character of God in human form) is an answer inasmuch as it allows humans and God to relate on the same level. The issue, however, is not whether or not Jesus is the answer so much as the issue is "what do we do with this answer?Your point could well be extrapolated into the statement "Why do believers (in God) pretend that this belief solves all the questions?"As a believer, my answer would be that God never intended to give us all the answers...only urging us to believe that there is a source that does have all the answers to our own human condition. (We still are expected to think, relate, and ban hate.)

Well, the simplest explanation is that "blacks" (or Hispanics, or whatever ethnic group is in the news), do not appear/portray themselves as a monolithic "organization" that attempts to legislate morality, control what may be read or watched, nor solicit money etc from the rest of us. "Blacks" are not demanding to get their particular customs, idiosyncratic worldview, or symbols accepted by everyone else. They are not lobbying school boards to get "black" science accepted is legitimate (although there have been a few attempts at historical revisionism, none of which amounted to much). We are not constantly bombarded by "blacks" proclaiming that non-"blacks" are doomed to eternal torment etc unless we become "black" or some such nonsense. And finally, "blacks" don't insist that non-"blacks" are unpatriotic and shouldn't be considered citizens. I'm very surprised you can't see the difference. I've worked for them (under contract). I was very struck by the no-strings-attached sincerity of the folks I encountered. Keep supporting them - they do good work. If you have done all those things, then I'm afraid it either didn't get much play in the news, or was drowned out by the highly vocal supporters of such. I think you also need to support this contention - IIRC it was the federal government that bloodily suppressed the Waco cult; it is/was civil rights workers (who also happened to be Christian, admittedly) who have suppressed the KKK - but not in the name of religion; it was good, God-fearing Christians who until 1865 supported slavery, at least in the US, and it wasn't until we'd paid the cost of over a million casualties that the practice was stopped - and there are few if any Christian groups directly supporting current anti-slavery efforts (the Salesians and CRS being two); it was a Christian group (albeit one that in many ways is an outlyer) that up until relatively recently espoused voluntary polygamy, and that in fact has members that still sub tabula practices it (I'm not sure what you are referring to in the "forced marriage" bit - could you clarify?). On the contrary, end of the worlders, rather than being denounced as you claim, appear to be actually increasing in popularity. There are way more folks spouting end times revelations than at any time in my life to this point (maybe they're just getting more air time - I'm willing to concede the point if you can show where any mainstream denomination has come out completely against the end-timers). This is simply disingenuous. The Catholic Church has been notorious for attempting to avoid any reference to internal problems, preferring to quietly remove corrupt or pedophiliac priests. Oddly, I don't hold it against them - no organization likes to air its dirty laundry in public. However, the current scandals rocking the Church only surfaced when outsiders brought the problems to public scrutiny. The Church only admitted them when forced to. The facts tend to refute your contention here. This statement doesn't match my recollection. When has ANY church, denomination, or sect denounced ANY so-called "Christian" leader - except in doctrinal context? And the whole problem with the creationist movement is that the mainstream is NOT denouncing the charlatans like Hovind. (I take that back, the Clergy Project is a stellar example of what needs to be done. Unfortunately, it isn't enough, and it isn't consistently promulgated. In addition, I give very high marks to the clergy who take the witness stand in opposition to these losers when some attempt at legal action is undertaken. However, I submit the churches have to consistently match the effectiveness of the crooks if they want to have their linen appear white. One denunciation doesn't do it - maybe mainstream Christianity just needs a new publicist.) Actually, my understanding is the IRS has been after him for years. He's been subpoened, jailed for contempt, forced to pay fines, etc for years for various infractions. Unlike some of my fellow posters here, I am very happy the schmuck finally got nailed - I enjoy it when a con man gets his come-uppance. I don't feel sorry for him at all. However, you need to substantiate that it was a "fellow Christian" who turned him in in the name of Christianity for this statement to have any weight. If you simply mean that as human beings we are as a species generally selfish scumbags in the aggregate, however we may be individually, then I'd probably agree with you. However, us heathen non-Christians aren't attempting to portray ourselves any differently. We don't claim the moral high ground. If you Christians are going to arrogantly proclaim you're better than everyone else because of your special relationship with an unevidenced entity, then you need to collectively ACT like you deserve the distinction. I'd even be willing to grant that you ARE better than the rest of us in that case.Edited by Quetzal, : No reason given.

There are clergy who speak out and speak up against the absolute nonsense like the End Timers as well as other examples of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.For example just a few days ago Barbara Rossing the author of "The Rapture Exposed" gave a speech on reclaiming Revelations. In it she said: There is also the Center for Progressive Christianity and the Christian Alliance for Progress just to name a few.BUT...reason is often not showmanship and making informed decisions is not as easy as having someone else think for you.The most common view of Christianity today is the Christian Infomercial as Sideshow known as Christian TV and preached several times a week, not from a pulpit but from the Carny sound stage that most Christian Churches have become.Today the Voice of Christianity is Not reason, but raw emotion, not intellect but passion, not questions but answers.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

What does it matter what blacks or hispanics are TRYING to do? The question was about whether what SOME do should cause you to judge ALL. Should the visible actions of a community affect the entire community? You did not answer this, but instead described one community's mission. They are only one of many. There are a wonderful group of Fransiscans working in Africa amoung lepers primarily, and Mother Teresa's sisters in India. I am referring to the types of cults which marry young girls to their elders and/or family members before they are of age.You are assuming that there exists one 'christian' force which is supposed to stand up against other christians. There is not. Christianity is made up of thousands of sects, some opposing one thing, some another. The RCC for example has no control over all of christianity, and the voice of one group or one individual is only a voice. It is not a law. Good God-fearing christians will stand up for right whether or not it is in the name of religion. The point is, they do. As do good people from every walk of life. Why? You don't think the people who complained about the priesthood were themselves Catholic, and that every pulpit across the world did not resonate with disappointment and condemnation? Why? Do blacks have to turn in their criminals in the name of race? This is your rule, and it seems to be grasping at straws. The point is that good christians do exist, and they DO NOT have to act in the name of anything to make it 'right'. Should I go out on the streets and open doors for folk the whole while proclaiming Christ? Actions speak louder than words, you know. If you want substantiation it is easy to find on Wiki et al. Her name was Rebekah something. Who do you think has the authority to put them out of business? NO ONE. Again, christian leaders have denounced Bush, end-of-world, you name it. They denounce doctrines and views. That is all they CAN do. And not every christian opposes the same things.

So basically the issue is whether or not Christians have a responsibility to organize a social voice and undertake actions to help society as a group or whether we are only responsible for doing the best we can individually and working out our own salvation through joyful works and through individual effort...am I right?

Sort of, Phat. Christians have organized a social voice and have undertaken actions which help society. Trouble is, there is no uniform 'christian'. What do you want? A Pope? Folks preach whatever version of christianity they like, and on top of that, they practice whatever version they like. Many of them do not preach what others consider to be christainity at all, but who has the 'rights' to the name? What is the model of christian 'should be', and what is it based on? Who follows that model? Individuals.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Then there was the Marcinkus Affair. :-p

I've heard of the "Left Behind" game, although probably because I've been out of the country so long, it hasn't made much of an impact. How "popular" is it really, and why? I mean, is it the subject matter or the fact that it is a violent shoot-'em-up that cause people to buy it? (BTW: Someone should probably tell the authors that if the myriad of entrepreneurs overseas who specialize in pirating video games don't consider it worth pirating, maybe the game isn't as good as they think it is... ) And that is precisely the point I've been trying to get across to anastasia. The Rat appears to agree with this perception. I can understand why people would want to act defensively to counter this perception, but at the same time I still don't understand why more isn't being done - individually or organizationally. Obviously, this perception doesn't reflect "True Christianity (tm)". Perhaps it's a "forest for the trees" problem - if you are a member of an organized church that ISN'T part of the problem, then it may be hard to understand the view from outside.Thanks for the links - those groups look interesting.

You've missed the distinction I was trying to describe, and in consequence missed the answer to your question. There is no "community" in the sense of Christianity reflected in other "groups". Christianity on the other hand, at least from the outside, IS a monolithic group - same basic beliefs, same dogmas, same face.To forestall the obvious quibble that there are a plethora of Christian groups, denominations, sects, etc, all with their own view of Christianity - yes, I'm aware of that. The Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary claims 39,000 such worldwide, while wiki (for what it's worth) claims 11,000 Pentecostal groups alone. To a non-Christian such as myself, the doctrinal and other differences between these groups are so vanishingly small as to be functionally non-existent. So when a highly-visible and -vocal self-proclaimed Christian states "All Believers should...", I have no reason (except my own intellectual honesty) to take him or her at anything but face value. After all, even you should be able to admit that to a non-shephard, all sheep look pretty much alike. Undoubtedly the sheep can tell the difference, of course. This is all you took away from that paragraph? Do you then admit that you overstated the case on the other examples you gave? Beyond that, I'm still unclear to which "cults" you are referring, since I haven't been exposed to any Christian groups where this practice is common (I am familiar with some Moslem and a number of traditionalist - usually animist - ethnic groups where this is practiced). No, I'm not "assuming" anything. I am obviously well aware of the staggering plethora of Christian groups floating around (see above). After all, I'm an atheist surrounded by a sea of believers. Nor do I expect a single voice to represent those opposed to the crooks and religious charlatans. I maintain, on the other hand, that I would expect to see a thousand or ten thousand voices speaking out - each from their own grounds - against these people. That I DON'T see. Rather, I see a handful only whose voices are drowned by others speaking in the name of the religion. The Clergy Project is one of the few - and highly laudable - examples of what is needed, as I noted previously. I have no idea of the religious affiliation of those who first brought the scandals into the light. If you say they were Catholics, then I have no reason to doubt you. In addition, I'm quite sure the "disappointment" and "condemnation" from the pulpit were loud. The point you seem to have missed, however, is that there would likely have been NO condemnation, etc, if someone hadn't spilled the beans. The Church's investigation, what little has been revealed anyway, shows that these practices had been on-going for decades. It wasn't until the scandal broke upon the public conscience that the Church even admitted there were problems. As I noted, I don't have a problem with this - it's pretty standard corporate behavior, and the RCC is nothing if not a megacorporation. I don't condone it, but I do understand it. What rule? You now seem to be trying to put words in my mouth. Very poor debate tactics. After all, you were the one that made a big deal about it being a Christian that turned the fool in to the IRS. As I pointed out it is immaterial who did it, unless you can make the case that the individual concerned did it in the name of his/her religion. In which event, you might have a point. However you haven't substantiated this claim in any way. This tactic is tantamount to the creationists making a big deal over the fact that Newton was a Christian (by implication making his religion responsible for his science), which of course had nothing to do with his scientific credentials. After all, Principia Mathematica wasn't a religious tract... If, as an illustration example, there are 5,000 end-of-the-world sects, what are the other 34,000 Christian groups doing? Don't feel bad, however. I ask a similar question of my Moslem friends, colleagues and acquaintances. Can you guess what it might be?

Thanks again for the links. This is brilliant and completely relevant to this topic (and provides another example of what needs to be done more:

quote:

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Sometimes the only Christians who receive media attention are those who make the most noise with their extreme views. Granted, they do provide entertainment value - extremists are fascinating. ...

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For example, the vast majority of Episcopalians do not believe that the theory of evolution is an atheistic conspiracy designed to destroy the faith of their children. ...

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Nor do we believe the Bible was auto-dictated by means of an infallible process that cannot be questioned. When we read the Bible, we employ God's gift of critical reasoning as well as faith. Those who believe that life would be meaningless if the Bible were found to be imperfect would do well, in our opinion, to summon a bit of existential courage. Rev. Matthew Lawrence, Sex, Religion and the Culture Wars: An Open Letter to the Community, from Center for Progressive Christianity

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Now if more folks like the good Reverend Matthews - say the 1 billion plus RCC members worldwide - would speak out like this, it is entirely possible that the whole thing would go away. Ya'll really do need a good publicist.

The book series has been phenomenally successful currently having sold over 60 Million copies. I do not know how popular the video game is but the authors of the books seems to be absolutely, certifiably insane.They recently posted a defense of the video game where I believe they fully indicted themselves as downright crazy jihadists no different than any Muslim terrorist.From JerryJenkins.com: Like all End Timers, they are simply insane. To them it is perfectly okay to kill the "forces of the antichrist".Of course they are the ones that decide who those forces are.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion