Lying For Jesus Award

Yes, it is very different on the inside looking out. I acknowledge good members of other christian groups, I do not attribute their sensibility to the merits of the group. By and large what is visible of many groups is vanity, fanaticism, greed, judgement of other groups, mockery of other groups, thousands of 'feel good' websites designed to make a quick buck without intellectual substance, hypocrisy, uncertainty, a myriad of faces, a myriad of conflicting dogmas. No, I answered a question that you specifically asked. It is not possible, I tell you. Many christians do not identify with other christians, they are more than likely sitting at home gloating over the arrest of Hovind the same way non-christians are. What good would it honestly do if all the Catholics in the world spoke out against a Protestant? Obviously they don't agree with each other. The people who need to speak out against the Protestants are their own sheep, and the people who need to speak out against the Catholics are their own sheep. Often they do not; they are sheep after all. But sometimes they do, which is why it is very relevent that I tell you about the woman who spoke out against Hovind, and the men who spoke out against the corrupt priests.Further, what the devil should I care if one christian thinks the earth is flat, and one thinks it is young, and one thinks it is a figment of our imagination? These are just beliefs, not evils. Even if some guy evades taxes, it is not my business to 'bust' him in the name of God. I have members of my own family who attempt to live as 'natural US citizens' working off of the land and receiving room and meat for payment. For them it has nothing to do with religion, and I will not be so foolish as to believe that the Hovind's of the world are following anything 'christian' in teaching.It is pretty interesting to think about being a crusader for chrstianity, but I suppose if I were to organize a public Speak Out in the Name Of Christianity fest, it would soon become a violent mess of people claiming I don't know jack about what christianity is. Obviously ex-altar boys and choir memebers either were or are Catholic. If you want me to look up some particulars about their current affiliations I can.I find the entire thing a little strange anyway. Almost no allegation was brought to light when it happened, only decades later or after the priest died. Almost nobody has mentioned a current incidence of this behavior. Once again; if one christian acts poorly and another acts admirably, why do we only hear about one of them? That is my point, not whether one acts in the name of christianity or not. A person truly acting in the name of christianity is going to quietly do what needs doing and take no credit.I don't want to be too lengthy; do not take this a sign of cherry-picking your reply. I will cover anything I may have missed if you so desire.

It is plainly obvious to me that there is no true religion, as there just too many. The word "true Christian" is a nonsense statement. After reading much of the bible, and what Jesus tries to teach us, you find out rather easily that it is not up to us to decide who and what true Christianity is. I think I realized that when I was 8 years old, and yelled at by the nun for asking where in the bible is the hail Mary. I went home and read a few pages from the bible, and quickly realized that religion was BS.Religion is whatever you want it to be, and we are free to call ourselves whatever we want. That is a fact. We retain these freedoms for obvious reasons, and everyone should be well aware of this.If we came together as a group to try and defeat this, we would be likening ourselves to the wicked religious leaders of years gone by, (ABE) and probably just get it wrong again anyway.
I feel like I would be comprimising peoples freedoms by doing this. The only way I can see to try and preach "true Christianity" is by loving all, including my enemies, and the crazy preachers on TV, and not judging them, people know not what they do, including myself. We live by grace alone.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

I appreciate your round-about agreeing with me. It is plainly obvious to me that there is no true Elvis, as there are just too many impersonators. The Hail Mary is an almost verbatim repetition of the words said to Mary (in the Bible) by the Angel Gabriel. You must have read the wrong few pages. Not your fault, you were only 8 years old.The rest of your post is A-ok.

not true. There is a true Elvis--we're just not sure if he died or went to some alien world.The impersonators are just trying to get him to come back (because they believe he did go away). The rest of us worship him by playing rockabilly music--cause we know he died.me? I just don't care enough. Elvis was a historical dude responsible for popularizing rock.better analogy--there's no true rock as there are way too many forms of rock.just having some fun, mind you.

Rat,I agree (mostly) with what you wrote. At the least, I understand - enough for the purposes of this discussion - where you're coming from. I concur that there is in reality no monolithic "Christianity" per se (see my previous reply to anastasia). Nor is it my expectation that there be one voice condemning the crooks, charlatans, con-men, and out-and-out nutcases that are - willy nilly - the most visible modern face of Christianity. I do not condemn all of Christianity for them. I would, however, as I mentioned to anastasia, expect/hope that IF you (generically) want to change the outsiders' perception, there SHOULD be 10,000 voices speaking out - each from their own particular stance. I'm aware that this isn't probably all that realistic. On the other hand, the longer the bozos are permitted to pass unchallenged, the perception that Christianity is populated with nutcases will continue to prevail or even grow.Let me give you an analogy that is close to my own heart. When you hear the term "Republican", what is your perception? Don't you immediately think "neo-con, right-wing, religious nutjob"? I certainly do - and I am that extremely rare, and possibly doomed-to-extinction, breed: an atheist Republican. I have spoken out (and written out) repeatedly against the so-called Republicans that currently control the party. I have repeatedly pointed out that the current crop have abrogated/violated the very foundational tenets of the party. I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, that I'm not the only one of the "old school" who think this. And yet, the voice of reason is muted. Most of "us" have simply given up, and changed to "libertarian" or other affiliation - although there are a few organizations still out there trying to change things. However, I concede that we're a vanishingly small minority.The external perception of both modern Christianity and Republicanism is highly negative. I submit, however, that Christians probably have a better opportunity to change this than I do...

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I was specifically talking about liberals who hate all Christians, just because they are Christian.

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Er, I don't personally know, or know of, any political liberals who hate Christians just because they are Christian.All of the liberals and liberal organizations I know of don't care what religion people are, as long as those people don't try to impose their religious views on others.I'd say that you might want to think about losing your persecution complex.

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Forget Germany. Do Nazis make Germans look bad? I hope not. And I also hope Hovind and such don't make Christians look bad. Chrisitanity is no more real than its members, and a christian should be judged as individually as a German. Better yet, not judged at all.

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So, you do not think we should judge the KKK or the Nazi Party as an organization?It is invalid, according to you, to say "The KKK is a white-supremacist terrorist organization."?

On this forum you see examples of Christians speaking out against the lack of logic, humility, equilibrium, reality, coherance, respect for human rights, and a 100 other faults which we perceive in our fellows. I, though my opportunities are few, attempt to do the same in private life, and have thus far have accomplished nothing save for a resounding slam of the door to communication.Much of the 'speaking out' is indeed doctrinal, as much of the crazy behavior visible is directly produced by abusive doctrines. Much also is simply abused doctrines. For example, the combination of belief in an immanent return of Christ, with belief that one is bound to adherence with authority, has resulted in cults of fear which are dangerous to themselves and to others. While these doctrines are not harmful in themselves, they must be held within the bounds of rational 'normal' behavior. It is often those who abuse authority who are responsible for the brain-washing of their sheep, turning spiritual warfare into all-out gun-toting armies prepared to battle for Christ. Physical intervention from external power sources is sometimes the only solution, as most christians simply dismiss others as 'the devil' and are already beyond dialoge. At times, I believe there truly is some 'devil' at work internally. Don't hate me for it. A final note; I do understand the Republican situation. I am sure you are aware of the issues in the RCC, and we certainly have voices which speak against these issues, but they are split between those who feel it is too conservative, and those who feel it is not conservative enough. Many Catholics HAVE given up, gone into schism, disillusionment, other denoms, or as in the case of my family, the Eastern churches. Like you, I cling to an ideal, but perhaps it is easier because I believe that God will make things right, and well, I guess there is no God watching the Republican party. Does this attitude make me lazy? Maybe, in terms of 'speaking out'. But sometimes prayer and good works is the kind of laziness that others expect to see.

Sure. As long as you judge individual Christian organizations as well. You can start big or start small, your preference. There are upwards of 39,000 of 'em, each with their own mini-organizations. See The Clergy Project, and the Salesian Missions.

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You are assuming that there exists one 'christian' force which is supposed to stand up against other christians. There is not. Christianity is made up of thousands of sects, some opposing one thing, some another. The RCC for example has no control over all of christianity, and the voice of one group or one individual is only a voice.

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So, when 50 Christian leaders from 50 different denominations see Jerry Falwell on the television and have strong feelings against what he is saying in the name of all Christians, what is preventing them from loudly and publicly denouning him?We see this but very rarely, either individually or collectively.

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What good would it honestly do if all the Catholics in the world spoke out against a Protestant?

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To those of us who consider all Catholics and Protestants Christian, it would mean a great deal!Most people consider Catholocism to be a subset of Christianity, ana.

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I find the entire thing a little strange anyway. Almost no allegation was brought to light when it happened, only decades later or after the priest died.

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Yeah.I certainly can not think of any possible reason that a 10 year old boy might not tell his devout parents that the parish priest raped him.After all, 20 or 30 years ago, men of God raping little boys was not considered shameful or shocking, was it? Law enforcement and even parents always believed little kids when they told such stories, didn't they?

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Almost nobody has mentioned a current incidence of this behavior.

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Could that be because there is a fear among the pedophiles in the Church that they will be reported and prosecuted? Could it also be that patents no longer assume that their children are safe when alone with priests and don't allow them to be?Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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As long as you judge individual Christian organizations as well

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Well, then you have given me leave to judge "The Roman Catholic Church".Now, am I allowed to judge "racists" as a group?

Not being a whiny liberal who bitches about everything... So what!? That doesn't meant they support him. People are just miding their own business, or not giving enough of a fuck, or not be bitches. Maybe they don't think its that big of a deal and just ignore him. There's plenty of reasons other than the one you hint at.Lack of opposition is not support and lack of support is not opposition.

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When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

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When they locked up the social democrats,
I did not speak out;
I was not a social democrat.

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When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

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When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

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-- Martin Niemller

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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

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-- attributed to Edmund Burke

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