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Author | Topic: Where is the Good Non American Music??? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
The New Pornographers, The Futureheads, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, The Smiths, The Cure, Echo & The Bunnymen, Elvis Costello, Belle & Sebastian, The Clash, Queen, U2, and The Pogues, just off the top of my head.
You might not like them, of course. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Eliott Smith was mentally ill. He was addicted to drugs and alcohol and was clearly clinically depressed. And... y'know. Died by stabbing himself in the chest. That's the kind of suicide that takes dedication. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
The Beatles were just ordinary people without "agendas". They were into having fun and writing songs about nothing. They loved music and melody. They lived life for fun and were not in any sense "true artists". Watch an interview with the Beatles and you see it right away. Leaving aside that some of the best artists in any medium were the ones who were just messing around and having a good time... in what universe did John Lennon not have an agenda? "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Because intelligent human beings don't "live for fun" "Man had always assumed he was more intelligent than dolphins because he achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars, and so on - while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."-Douglas Adams people who change the world don't "live for fun". Unless the change they want to make is to get people to appreciate a life lived for love, brotherhood, and fun. Sorta like John Lennon. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Music made by idiots sucks. John Lennon wasn't shit. lol Well, that was an interesting discussion. Be sure to let us know if the intense amount of thought you've put into the subject leads you to believe that something "totally, like, blows."
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Ah... let's see.
Evidence? Examples? Off the top of my head, anyone who's ever written a fantastic comedy? Which would include anyone from early Woody Allen to William Shakespeare.
John Lennon wasn't anything. Gotta tell ya, this isn't wildly different, in terms of content, from the original post. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
music isn't about being tortured. music is about fun. Oh, I don't know about that. I know Prophex wants to avoid classical music, but you'd be hard pressed to say Mozart wasn't tortured in his later days. (Or, for modern music, that Kurt Cobain, or Trent Reznor, or fill-in-the-miserable-bastard wasn't the same.) I think the lesson of the day is, "music (read: art) isn't for anything." It makes absolutely no demands on the mindset of the artist, only on what the art does to the mindset of the audience. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
He said that he wasn't at all messing around when he made them. If you can watch Sleeper and think Woody Allen wasn't fucking around and having a good time, then there's not a whole lot to say. This isn't to say he didn't get serious at that time as well. (ie, Annie Hall.) But it's not until much later in his career that the top priority in his movies stopped being to make the audience have a good, fierce laugh.
I have read Shakespeare and he is exactly like the Beatles are to music. Exactly. I know your intent here is to insult Shakespeare, but honestly, you're just inadvertently praising the Beatles. William Shakespeare wrote plays that resonate with audiences across centuries. No matter how the plays are staged, how they're acted, or who's watching them, the characters manage to belt the audience in the face every single time. This is, without exaggerating, a feat has not been matched by anyone in any medium.* If your criteria for "not an idiot" doesn't include Shakespeare, then you're operating on some Bizarro-world definition of idiot, that has no meaning to anyone but you. --- *Although Eliott Smith, had he not lived a life so amazing that it prompted him to stab himself in the chest to escape it, would probably say the Beatles resonate across decades in the same way. We'll see how well they manage to hold up in 2400AD before saying for sure, though. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
What I mean to say is that Shakespeare was an average joe just like the Beatles... I think they knew it. Not to degrade their efforts and work, sure it is good. But they are not what the true artists are made of, and that is so apparent. Well, I'm sure John Lennon and William Shakespeare appreciate your magnanimity. But perhaps you could, for the sake of argument, give an example of the "things about life" not understood by either one? "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
This sort of life in some cases involves accomplishing something great and having something to show for it, the men that you have talked of were not men who had anything to do with truth or an examined life. Okay... to quote another great musician, "you're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything." You say they don't have anything to do with truth, but you gotta tighten that up a bit. I've already gone over the way in which Shakespeare created characters that strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries... if that has nothing to do with truth, what does? If someone can so thoroughly understand the human mind that he strikes universal themes, that continue their relevance in a world so far removed in time as to be unrecognizable... again, an accomplishment no other human has yet matched... how can he possibly be said to have lived an unexamined life? What is this "truth" you want artists to reach?
Read these lyrics from "The Story of An Artist" by Daniel Johnston It's kinda trite, actually. He could have shortened that up to "nobody understands me, stay out of my room!", and not really lost anything. I'd rather listen to a Smiths song; they do the same thing, but have a little more self-awareness about the silliness of what they're doing. I think this will be the only time anyone has ever said this, but it seems like Morrissey lived a bit more of an examined life than this fella. It's one thing to say, "I'm an artist, I'm an artist!" over and over again, as Johnston does in those lyrics. It's another to actually go create something that has an emotionally resonant effect, like Shakespeare or the Beatles. Personally, I'd consider the latter the more admirable work. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
I acknowledge that Shakespeare was a very effective playwright. But being about to "strike a deep chord of empathy with audiences across several centuries" has nothing to do with what I am referring to here. Then for the love of crimney, please explain what you are referring to here. You said it was truth, and an examined life. But apparently, expressing universally appreciable truths about the human life, more effectively than anyone, ever, does not qualify.
What separates Harper Lee from Jean Paul Sartre? A black poloneck and a crapload of cigarettes. But seriously, is there a reason you're shifting the focus onto apples v. oranges now? Why don't we ask what separates tapioca pudding from beekeeping? Fortunately, we can agree on one thing... Hemingway sucked.
This is exactly the kind of truth I am referring to. What is discussed in these famous English writers novels and short stories has NOTHING to do with truth. Even if what they say happens to be true! And incidentally, Lee, Fitzgerald, and Hemingway were all American.
I guess Plato was right when he talked about those who would work and those who would become Philosopher Kings. Tell me, who would you say truly grasps the eternal and unchangeable... the author who writes about human emotions that are still relatable after centuries, or the musician who whines about people watching TV? "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
You should probably stop admonishing people to read more carefully, if all you took from that post was "Hemingway sucks."
However, if that's where you're touching down, I'll go ahead and provide the same post for you again, in Hemingwayspeak.
quote: "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
No but there seems to be a connection between those qualities and those who do "understand life" better than everyone else. If you feel like getting around to it, I'd still be interested to hear what about life, specifically, was not understood by William Shakespeare or John Lennon. I'm reasonably sure you'd rather say, "they weren't true artists" another 15,000 times, but hope springs eternal. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
All I am saying is that from what I have read and heard of Lennon and Shakespeare put up next to Smith and Johnston it doesn't hold up. Should we start by going over what the word "specifically" means?
The lyrics to Imagine are horrible. That wasn't a Beatles song, just fyi. But I agree, it was substandard. So, there's one song you don't like, out of a twenty year career. Glad we're narrowing the field so far.
The words in Shakespeare's plays are cool and good sure, but there is nothing that you can take out of Shakespeare and show me that would amaze me, inspire me, or make me feel that Shakespeare was not some average joe who learned to write the english language down on paper. Yeah, I didn't ask you if you liked it. I asked you what he didn't understand about life (your words, remember) that was understood by Smith and Johnston.
You see there are 2 different kinds of people at this level, those who know and those who don't. Fabulous. What, specifically, did Shakespeare not know?
The ones who don't are greatly appreciated by those millions of others who don't and the ones that do but are misunderstood by the masses like here in this microcosm at evc. I see. It's an Indie Rock Pete thing. "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut." -Stephen Colbert
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