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Author
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Topic: Immigration issues
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 5 of 130 (384493)
02-11-2007 7:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
02-11-2007 6:53 PM
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How do you identify an illegal?
I think the whole idea is absolutely silly. Those proposing an open border neglect to consider the issue of terrorism and illegal smuggling, while those proposing tightening the borders and building a wall are simply stupid. The funny thing about it is that the current Administration has been pulling the typical Conman, Palm the Pea tactic by pushing "The Wall". The question really comes down to one underlying issue. How do you tell if someone is a citizen?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-11-2007 6:53 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 17 of 130 (384520)
02-11-2007 9:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by gene90
02-11-2007 8:48 PM
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Re: Immigration
The point though, is why immigration is such a touchy-feely subject in the US when it isn't elsewhere. Probably there is some sentiment of economic protectionism in other countries, but the lack of an outcry is surprising and hints of double standards. In this country, we have street demonstrations when somebody suggests building a fence. There are several reasons. One is that the US has perhaps the most easily accessible borders and the longest virtually open borders around. While it is a fair sea journey to reach Australia, it is simply a walk across most US borders. One other thing is that Canada, France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and on and on have Registries of Citizens. They know who should be in their country. How can we tell whether someone is here legally or illegally?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 8:48 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 9:23 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 22 of 130 (384527)
02-11-2007 9:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by gene90
02-11-2007 9:23 PM
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Re: Immigration
I don't know. Americans have a long history of wanting their government to leave them alone. Because of that, we may never have a good way of knowing who should be here or who isn't. Well if there is no way to tell who is here legally or illegally, why bother?
But that accident of geography has no bearing on whether or not the United States has the same authority to control migration enjoyed by every nation in the first world. Quite a few people seem to think that it does not, that is what I would like to better understand. Again, see above. The economic incentives work two ways, both to the benefit of the US and to the detriment of the source country. The US encourages illegal immigration to provide a pool of cheap labor.
However, what I want to know is if the US government has the right to tell certain migrants that they have no right to be here, and if not, why other countries with more restrictive policies are getting free pass. LOL The old strawman. Nothing like bringing up irrelevancies. What we are discussing is US immigration policy. What some other country does is totally irrelevant to the issue.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 9:23 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 9:46 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 27 of 130 (384532)
02-11-2007 10:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by gene90
02-11-2007 9:46 PM
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Trying to change the subject.
What you had said, and what I replied to, was:
However, what I want to know is if the US government has the right to tell certain migrants that they have no right to be here, and if not, why other countries with more restrictive policies are getting free pass. To then try to change the subject to simply studying what other nations do is frankly, dishonest.
And yes, there are benefits to immigration, legal and illegal. But again, it would be preferable to be able to have some say over who gets here. I don't see why that seems to be such a controversial concept when pretty much everybody else goes to even greater extremes. More misdirection. The controversy is over the hypocrisies of the US position. We propose really stupid plans like the "Fence or Wall" that will have no effect whatsoever, yet we do not address the proximate causes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 9:46 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by gene90, posted 02-11-2007 10:15 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
Because "illegal" immigrants don't pay taxes. I'm sorry but that is simply false. If someone told you that they were lying. If you repeat it after this you will be lying. It is also a very, very stupid thing to say. When an illegal immigrant buys something they pay the same sales tax as anyone else. When they rent a place to live, part of that rent goes to pay the same taxes as paid by any other renter. If they have power, they pay the same taxes anyone else who has power pays. If they have a phone, they pay the same phone tax as anyone else. If they register their car, they pay the same property tax as anyone else does. Many companies withhold income taxes and FICA on illegal workers just as they do for a legal worker. Illegal immigrants pay taxes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-12-2007 4:19 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
nj writes: Don't hold back for me Jar. Tell me how you really feel. I feel like Message 48 is the most wonderful example of the total bankruptcy of thought I have ever read.
nj writes: Paying "sales" tax when you purchase items does not constitute paying taxes. nj writes: How did I know you were going to bring that up? "Sales" tax is a pittance to the IRS. That is not "paying you taxes." Ever heard of someone going to prison for "sales tax evasion?" Taxes nj. Sales taxes. Use taxes. Property taxes. Excise taxes.
nj writes: How can you register your car if you're not a citizen? How can you get a driver's license if you aren't a citizen? Don't you need at least two forms of identification and a bill establishing a legal residence? Now, I would agree that many illegals have found a way of getting around it illegally. That's another issue all in itself. You yourself note that all is needed is a drivers license and id. What makes you think illegals cannot get either a drivers license or id? And to register a car, you need a bill of sale. That's it.
nj writes: Yeah right! So they tell the Federal Government, "Hey, I have a bunch of illegal immigrants working for me, but I just wanted you to know that I've taken the liberty of deducting what I thought should be the deductions you would ordinarily deduct had they been legal." ??? Not at all. The simply report (if they don't just steal the money from their employees) the illegals just as they do everyone else. The fact is that many employers simply steal the money. The illegals still pay the taxes, the employer simply keeps the money and does not turn it in to the government. NJ, thank you. Your post will stand as a monument to willful ignorance. Honestly, America has had an immigrant problem since 1607.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-12-2007 7:23 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 62 of 130 (384753)
02-12-2007 9:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by gene90
02-12-2007 9:18 PM
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
jar writes: Taxes nj. Sales taxes. Use taxes. Property taxes. Excise taxes. to which gene90 replied:
quote:
Which is nothing compared to state and Federal income tax.
Really? My property taxes this year were over half of what my income tax were. And cumulative sales tax for the year were about equal to my federal income tax. But that still misses the point. Illegal immigrants pay taxes. They help pay for the schools, the roads, the fire departments, the police, for water and sewer, for electricity and phones. Specifically, in Washington, Texas, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, Tennessee, Wyoming and South Dakota where there is no State Income Tax they pay about the same as anyone else that is in their earning range. Illegal immigrants are NOT making megabucks. Even if they were paying federal and state income taxes it is very doubtful that their contribution would be even noticeable. But illegal immigrants still pay taxes. To claim that they do not is simply false.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 9:18 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 9:42 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 64 of 130 (384755)
02-12-2007 9:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by gene90
02-12-2007 9:42 PM
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
Texas (guess where many illegal immigrants are) has no State income taxes, however we do have property taxes and pretty high sales taxes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 9:42 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 9:47 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 66 of 130 (384758)
02-12-2007 10:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by gene90
02-12-2007 9:47 PM
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
But what percentage of illegal aliens own their own home? (Strike off property taxes, which is probably the biggest on your list.) Why? Why strike off property taxes? Even if they pay rent, part of that rent goes to pay the property taxes. Illegal immigrants pay taxes.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 9:47 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by gene90, posted 02-12-2007 10:04 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 69 of 130 (384770)
02-12-2007 11:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by kuresu
02-12-2007 11:15 PM
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
Them was just tourists Edited by jar, : No reason given.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by kuresu, posted 02-12-2007 11:15 PM | | kuresu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 85 by kuresu, posted 02-13-2007 1:35 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 81 of 130 (384858)
02-13-2007 10:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Hyroglyphx
02-13-2007 10:04 AM
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More falsehoods from nj.
I didn't misspeak. I very clearly said that illegal aliens don't pay in to the services that legal people do. What services do you get for including a two dollar increase on a shirt that costs thirty dollars? Does that go to pay for road maintenance? How about hospitals? Social services? No, none of that. Again with the total falsehoods. The illegals DO pay to fund roads, and hospitals and social services. Do they buy gas? If so then they pay State, Federal and Local gas tax. They pay property taxes. They pay school assessments. They pay sales tax. They pay use taxes. They pay tolls. They pay excise taxes. And, as point out in Message 70, they pay State and Federal Income Tax. nemesis, why don't you simply admit that you are wrong?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-13-2007 10:04 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes
See Message 70 and Message 81.
Jar, even if you introduced this pittance to the equation, which is so utterly specious, the fact remains that ALL LEGAL AMERICAN citizens HAVE to pay ALL of their taxes. Why, then, do some people get to be REWARDED for breaking the laws, while law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick? First, it is NOT a pittance. Second, how do they get rewarded? Just what supposed benefits do they get that they do not pay for?
Because to get a drivers license means that you have to provide proof of citizenship and proof of residence. Sorry, not yet true. I did not have to prove citizenship to get my driver's license.
Please substantiate your ad hoc explanation that employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants "deduct" taxes from migrants. They pay them, what, 3 dollars an hour, and then on top of that, deduct taxes? What do they take out? Are these farmers also accountants who keep up with the average taxation laws? When they turn in this money to the government and the government asks who these mystery people are with no social security numbers are, do they tell the government, "oh I hired some illegal aliens. But please, don't say anything to INS." That's absolutely absurd Jar. Again with the moving goal posts, pea palming and just plain misrepresentation. First, I said nothing about "knowingly hire illegal immigrants". Second, I have known many examples where those that did knowingly hire illegal aliens did so to cheat them out of ANY wages. When I lived in California, it was not unusual during harvest season to see the great green cars of the INS show up at a farm on Friday. Why Friday? Because it was payday. And the illegals melted into the countryside and so the farmer didn't have to pay them that week. Further, as pointed out to you in Message 70, folk are contributing to FICA and Income Tax in record numbers. Phantom folk. Folk who seem not to exist.
You can alleviate some of those problems by deporting yourself then. We'll follow your lead boss. Yet more nonsense. My folk were already here and settled in 1607. nemesis, the facts are that illegal immigrants pay taxes. The illegals DO pay to fund roads, and hospitals and social services. Do they buy gas? If so then they pay State, Federal and Local gas tax. They pay property taxes. They pay school assessments. They pay sales tax. They pay use taxes. They pay tolls. They pay excise taxes. and as pointed out in Message 70, they pay income, Social Security and even unemployment taxes. To say that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes is simply a falsehood.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-13-2007 12:56 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Check out the subsequent generations
Without control of our border, America will gradually sink into an average country, instead of leading the world towards a desired goal. How do you identify who should be here?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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