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Author Topic:   Having it both ways (Chinese abortion policy & Pro-choice/life considerations)
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 5 of 59 (396642)
04-21-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
04-21-2007 12:26 PM


the issue taken with this action is that a society-wide devaluing of the roles and lives of women has resulted in a preference for sons. this is because only sons are viewed as bringing honor and being able to provide for their parents. in the light of the population reduction programs that have been implemented since the 60s (i think. i wrote a paper on this but god help me i'm bad with dates.) such as the one child policy in which parents are financially punished for having more than two children. (there is no stated policy for mandatory abortions, and the national government has spoken out against them on numerous occasions, but some local authorities have utilized such.) likewise, parents are rewarded for having only one child. parents with two children receive no aid or censure. the current policy is, however, two children, one son in which families with a daughter can try for a son. this policy is intended to reduce the gender disparity which is rapidly growing and some 8 million men will be without potential wives in about 20 years.
the protest in this case is against that devaluing of women which results in the specific abortion of female fetuses in preference for a son.

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 Message 4 by Jon, posted 04-21-2007 12:26 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 59 (396643)
04-21-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
04-21-2007 12:16 PM


Re: It's not really that hard to understand.
Most of the criticism that I've heard about China and abortions is directed to the government's policy that requires women to get abortions under certain circumstances.
in my research, there are no such policies. families were previously only permitted one child (see my explanation in the above post). how they decided to limit their births is up to them. however, any higher parity children are not killed, simply taxed. there have been local abuses, but there is no national policy resembling this draconian suggestion.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 59 (396645)
04-21-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
04-21-2007 10:48 AM


once again you're obfuscating reality just to bad-mouth people who disagree with you.
the issue here is that the purpose of abortion in this country is to have the right to control the output of one's own uterus irrespective of the wishes or opinions of anyone else. the purpose of abortion in china has been to get rid of a "useless" daughter in order to be able to have a son. this is because men are the only valued members of society, free to their choice in employment having the ability to provide for their parents. women are required to serve specific limited roles and are not viewed as bringing "honor" to their families. when a woman marries, she becomes a part of her husband's family, leaving her parents with no children. in the light of the programs implemented to reduce the population growth in china, this leaves parents with no desire to raise a daughter only to comepletely lose their investment in her.
the idea is that if women had equal rights and opportunities in the country, then women would be selected for just as often. might i mention... do you really want 8 million frustrated chinese men? do you know the kind of social issues that could result from gender disparity? increases in sexual slavery kidnappings, increases in disease with unregulated prostitution, increase in violent crime from the gangs necessary to run an underground sex industry, fraud, money laundering, extortion... do i need to go on? not to mention a potential army of unattached 8 million chinese men who could easily be drafted and sent out to war with who increases their level of frustration.
it is not wrong to seek to ensure that you have a child who will be able to care for you in your old age. it is wrong to perpetuate ideas that women have no value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-21-2007 10:48 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Taz, posted 04-25-2007 12:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 16 of 59 (397313)
04-25-2007 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by riVeRraT
04-25-2007 9:22 AM


irony? what the fuck are you talking about.
really. do you think before you hit that submit reply button, or do you just kind paste in some random crap and go with it?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 17 of 59 (397314)
04-25-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taz
04-25-2007 12:33 PM


i'm sure there's a huge number of unregistered women, but as a student researcher with no visa (and probably no likelihood of getting one since my own government is bound to put me away for being dangerous everntually and china would never let me in.) i can't build an interview database. but there's enough misunderstanding with the one-child policy to go around as it is.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 19 of 59 (397363)
04-25-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by subbie
04-25-2007 1:38 PM


Re: It's not really that hard to understand.
For you to presume that I just haven't given it enough thought and you can bring me to my senses with one question on a forum board is rather insulting.
but if i pass a law in south carolina to emotionally abuse you and force you to view an ultrasound of your BABY, i can. cause that's ethical.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by subbie, posted 04-25-2007 5:24 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 21 of 59 (397376)
04-25-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by subbie
04-25-2007 5:24 PM


Re: It's not really that hard to understand.
sarcasm mostly.
i know <3

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 33 of 59 (398100)
04-29-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Archer Opteryx
04-26-2007 8:23 AM


Re: Linear Solution, Complex System, Pandora's Box
Interesting that this topic opened as new reports of forced abortions emerge in Guanxi Provice:
i am aware of the story. and i believe it. but there are no policies for this. these are abuses by local officials which can and should be stopped. but probably won't be.
National Party officials set and enforce quotas--strictly. They aren't very curious about how their provincial officials meet those quotas any more than they are curious about how individual couples do.
and they ought to be. this is among the steps "we" have demanded china take to join the "rest of the world" in respecting human rights.
The exorbitant amount of money families are obliged to pay is not a 'tax.' It is a fine. The family has committed a crime. With that the family's problems only begin.
Children beyond one are denied official recognition in China. They can get no government ID card in a country where nearly all services are socialized. For all but the wealthy that means no education, no housing, no banking, no employment. Until recently it meant no access to health care; today they may be admitted to a hospital upon payment of huge fees. These individuals are completely dependent on their families and communities for support.
i am aware.
the problem is that these policies are imposed when simply educating the population and empowering the position of women would do the job. india has a similar problem and a different solution... none. however, in kerala, they instituted serious education reforms and the population growth stalled on it's own. educated women who don't have to gain the approval of their families by making babies won't make babies. it is a complex problem, but it has a very simple solution which answers the question in the OP. the problem here isn't really the position and policies of the government, those are just a poorly aimed solution. the problem is the position of women and the role they have been forced into. the abuse of female abortions isn't an offense against those fetuses, it's an offense against the women who have been abused into thinking that they are not useful members of society and that to have a daughter (another woman) would make them even less valuable. it is merely a symptom of the all around devaluing of women in that culture.
these are the sources for my paper.
Agence France Presse. 2006. “China to pay farmers more for having fewer children.” October 16.
BBC Monitoring International Reports. 2006. “China implements policies to counter gender imbalance.” September 22.
BBC Monitoring International Reports. “China's population to peak soon - family planning official.” October 9.
Bongaarts, John. 1984. “Implications of Future Fertility Trends for Contraceptive Practice.” Population and Development Review 10-2 (June): 341-52.
Bongaarts, John. 1994. “Population Policy Options in the Developing World.” Science, New Series 263-5148 (February 11): 771-6.
Caldwell, John C, James F Phillips, and Barakat-e-Khuda. 2002. “The Future of Family Planning Programs.” Studies in Family Planning 33-1 (March): 1-10.
China Daily. 2006. “Population to peak at 1.5B in 2030s.” June 23.
China Daily. 2006. “One-child policy 'will not change'.” September 30.
David, Henry P. 1982. “Incentives, Reproductive Behavior, and Integrated Community Development in Asia.” Studies in Family Planning 13-5 (May): 159-173.
Freedman, Lynn P and Stephen L Isaacs. 1993. “Human Rights and Reproductive Choice.” Studies in Family Planning 24-1 (January-February) 18-30.
Gulhati, Kaval. 1977. “Conpulsory Sterilization: The Change in India's Population Policy.” Science, New Series 195-4284 (March 25) 1300-5.
Hindustan Times. 2006. “PM frowns on tough population checks.” August 23.
Indo-Asian News Service. 2006. “No easing of restrictions in Beijing's population control policy.” September 23.
Irish Times. 2006. “China's hard line on family planning.” May 9.
Jowett, A J. 1984. “The Growth of China's Population, 1949-1982 (With Special Reference to the Demographic Disaster of 1960-1961).” The Geographic Journal 150-2 (July): 155-170.
Laidlaw, Karen A and Edward G Stockwell. 1980. “Fertility Control Programs in Asia: Another Look at the Data.” Asian Survey 20-8 (August): 803-11.
Merrick, Thomas W. 2002. “Population and Poverty: New Views on an Old Controversy.” International Family Planning perspectives 28-1 (March): 41-6.
Monro, Alexander. 2006. “Hidden legacy of China's family plan.” New Scientist, July 8.
Murayama, Hiroshi. 2006. “Population explosion gives way to worker shortages linked to one-child policy.” The Nikkei Weekly, September 4.
Narayanan, Vasudha. 1997. “'One Tree is Equal to Ten Sons': Hindu Responses to the Problems of Ecology, Population, and Consumption.” Journal of the American Academy of Religion 65-2 (Summer): 291-332.
Norton, James H K. 2005. India and South Asia. Iowa: McGraw-Hill/Dushkin.
Ogden, Suzanne. 2006. China. Connecticut: McGraw-Hill/Dushkin.
Population Council, The. 1981. “India: Population Growth in the 1970s.” Population and Development Review 7-2 (June): 325-34.
Population Council, The. 2006. “Twenty-first century India: Population, economy, human development, and the environment.” Population and Development Review (June).
Sen, Amartya. 1996. “Fertility and Coercion.” The University of Chicago Law Review 63-3 (Summer): 1035-61.
Sen, Amartya. 2001. “Population and Gender Equity.” Journal of Public Health Policy 22-2: 169-174.
Shen, Jianfa. 1998. “China's Future Population and Development Challenges.” The Geographic Journal 164-1 (March): 32-40.
Singh, Susheela, Deidre Wulf and Heidi Jones. 1997. “Health Professionals' Perceptions About Induced Abortion in South Central and Southeast Asia.” International Family Planning Perspectives 23-2 (June): 59-67.
South China Morning Post. 2006. “New policies needed to tackle an old problem.” May 26.
South China Morning Post. 2006. “Shift planned in population policy.” October 10.
Spengler, Joseph J. 1956. “The Population Problem: Dimensions, Potentialities, Limitations.” The American Economic Review 46-2 (May): 337-51.
Statesman, The. 2006. “From liability to asset.” June 13.
Tabbarah, Riad B. 1976. “Population Education as a Component of Development Policy.” Studies in Family Planning 7-7 (July): 197-201.
Tien, H Yuan. 1987. “Abortion in China: Incidence and Implications.” Modern China 13-4 (October): 441-68.
Tsui, Amy Ong. 2001. “Population Policies, Family Planning Programs, and Fertility: The Record.” Population and Development Review 27-Supplemental: 184-204.
US Central Intelligence Agency. The World Factbook. Rank Order - Infant mortality rate. http://www.cia.gov/...tions/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html (Novermber 13, 2006).
US Census Bureau. World Population Information. World Population Trends. U.S. Census Bureau: Page not found (November 20, 2006).
US Library of Congress. China. China (October 28, 2006).
US Library of Congress. India. India (October 28, 2006).
Wertheimer, Linda and Jill McGivering. 2006. “Morning Edition: Chinese government continues population curbs.” National Public Radio, 17 October.
Xinhua News Agency. 2006. “1st Ld-China focus: Gender Imbalance worries China, govt takes action.” September 22.
Xinhua News Agency. 2006. “Beijing will not ease restrictions on birth of second child.” September 29.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 35 of 59 (398113)
04-29-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 11:08 PM


mostly off topic responses
Ant eaters grew long snouts so they could reacht the food.
no. one or several ant eaters had a long snout and a long tongue and that helped him eat more easily, thus allowing him to survive long enough to fuck a lot and pass on his long snoutedness.
There are wasp's? in africa that have penis's longer than their body, so they could reach the females opening, out of necessity. As a matter of fact, they can't even get to their mate without the help of some ants.
again, it's not necessity, really, so much as only the ones who had long penises could mate and they passed on those genes for long penises.
It only stands to reason (adds a few million years) that eventually men would reproduce, or become asexual.
if men evolved alone, you might have a point, except not. males are not a species. it is more likely that women, with the capacity to participate in prenatal nurture, would be able to randomly develop asexual reproduction. but it would probably happen by mistake (random fusing of two ova) rather than by any process controlled by genetics. i really couldn't describe for you what it might take for women to start reproducing asexually. btw, of all the asexual species which still demonstrate sexual differentiation (ie being recently asexualizaed) i've only heard of females. like those crazy lesbian lizards who still require copulatory stimulation to initiate a pregnancy.
{male perspective}...you could make love to a thousand women, but suck one cock,,,,fag for life!
you clearly demonstrate that you don't speak for any man but yourself. don't claim to speak for half of the world population if you don't. am i a dyke because i've been with one other woman in spite of my general preference for and impending marriage to a man? or is that just one more hot thing for you to jerk to? that's a trick question, since i don't consider myself as having a sexual orientation, but you get the picture. i wonder what you would do in prison if presented with the option of seeking protection from another man through favors or be beaten or raped by everyone else daily.
there was a pamphlet talked about on this american life by stephen donaldson, an activist with the stop prison rape campaign.
This American Life
Act Three. Who's Your Daddy?
A reading of a pamphlet written by ex-con Stephen Donaldson for heterosexual men who are about to enter prison, about how to "hook up" with a stronger man ” "daddy" or "jocker" ” who'll provide protection in return for sex. He explains the rules and mores that govern this part of American prison culture. There's no graphic language and there are no graphic images in this story, but it does acknowledge the existence of sexual acts. Read by Larry DiStasi. (6 minutes)
you should listen to it. or read it on the stop prison rape website.
Stephen Donaldson (activist) - Wikipedia
there's the wiki article on the author.

This message is a reply to:
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