Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites

This is a science forum thread. The "dates" assertion you are making is an example of something you are expected to support.Failing to do so will mean a longer suspension.I don't recall that you have answered the post which lead to your last suspension. This one will be longer so you don't keep cluttering up threads.

Yes, it is valid that there are no currently proven references to an "Israel" previous to Merneptah.The Merneptah stele tells us essentially that, somewhere in central Canaan, a people named Israel existed, considered enemies of Egypt in 1210 BC.The association with the Israelites and the Hyksos was made as early as 250 BC by Manethon of Sebennytos, and Josephus, Flavius in the 1st century AD.Many scholars feel that the biblical story of Joseph rising to power in Egypt tallies with the political realities of the Hyksos era, and indeed the time-frame of these events seems to fit; between 1750 and 1550 BC.As for the association of the Hyksos expulsion and the Exodus, there are pros and cons for this argument. The general feel of the Hebrew narrative indicates Ramasside slaves migrating from Egypt to Canaan, whereas the Hyksos expulsion is the destruction of a dynasty and expulsion of a population--which seems to date to Jacob or Joseph era events? Perhaps in the end, the biblical authors composed their saga on early strands of information they had available,--a dynasty fleeing Egypt, and Hebrew slaves escaping harsh bondage in the quarries and mines of the New Kingdom.

IamJoseph And the Israeli people were incapable of the same? Which scholars and what is their evidence? So, no scroll of self admission constitutes proof in your eyes? Please promise never to serve on a jury would you? And the bible has its share of incorrect statements and inflated storytelling and outright mistakes and lies so what is your point? That humans of ancient times were similar to those today? I would not expect that to be very enlightening would you?

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This isn't really much help, since your original claim was that "Israel does back-up their history with authentic, contemporanous accounts,". So where does the Old testament back-up Hyksos history?

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As for new king arising, this happened a lot in ancient Egypt.

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Brian

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Hyksos don't have to be backed here. It does not just say a new king arose - it qualifies it with 'who knew not Joseph or the Hebrews'.

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Well, I never asked about the OT, I asked about the dates in the Book of Exodus, since, again, you seem to forget your original claim, in this case "The descriptions in the book of Exodus contains too many authentic, historical details, and too many dates and names".

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So, let's try again. What authentic dates does the Book of Exodus contain, we have the first month of the year in Ex. 2:12, any idea what year we would be looking at?

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The date of leaving Egypt was diarised,

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The month was given, whether it was 'diarised' is a different matter.

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Brian.

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The book of exodus is an intergrated part of the OT, and the going out of egypt is diarised, its date, including the day/month/year is calculatable (given), and observed annually as the passover. There is more credence here, for example, than the dates of christmas or the date greece battled persia: it is followed by other dates upto the end of the OT writings, then by follow-up books which also contain dates. Its as good as it gets.

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actually, the whole first part of the book is true... right up to where he meets the norsemen. the rest is beowulf.

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The operative factor is, the fadlen don't posses an egyptian stele backup; a thread of historical books; archeological relics; the dates of the Dan Tel discovery, for example, is confirmed - after many years of calling King David a myth. These factors don't allow the equating of any other document in existence - there is no equivalence to the calibre of evidences at hand anywhere else. The myth factor is dead.

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This is a science forum thread. The "dates" assertion you are making is an example of something you are expected to support.
Failing to do so will mean a longer suspension.

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I don't recall that you have answered the post which lead to your last suspension. This one will be longer so you don't keep cluttering up threads.

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Answering posts is not cluttering up. You asked a question before and then followed it next post with a restriction for off topic: I posted the details elsewhere. All such questions have been responded to.

You have been asked to support these claims. Use detailed biblical references and show your calculations. You have one more post before a 3 day break.

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Yes, it is valid that there are no currently proven references to an "Israel" previous to Merneptah.
The Merneptah stele tells us essentially that, somewhere in central Canaan, a people named Israel existed, considered enemies of Egypt in 1210 BC.

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'Enemies' signifies a battle to be free, and marks the only time an enslaved peoples escaped what was then the world's super-power, and followed by a period of a nation, a scientific cencus, the completion of the Mosaic books, the establishment of Israel in Canaan and its capital Jerusalem, and the temple destroyed by Babylon. The right to freedom (Liberty) and Inalienable Human Rights were born here. There is no question here of fakery as flaunted in this thread: the descriptions of Israel's failures in wars with Babylon and Rome are recorded very plainly, as is the subjugation under Egypt. IOW, self-criticism is not lacking here.

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As for the association of the Hyksos expulsion and the Exodus, there are pros and cons for this argument. The general feel of the Hebrew narrative indicates Ramasside slaves migrating from Egypt to Canaan, whereas the Hyksos expulsion is the destruction of a dynasty and expulsion of a population--which seems to date to Jacob or Joseph era events?

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This inconsistancy is highlighted by Israel going on to be a nation in Canaan, unlike the Hyksos expulsion.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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You have been asked to support these claims. Use detailed biblical references and show your calculations. You have one more post before a 3 day break.

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I did supply claims. Your 'these' is not clear.

Ah, I'm beginning to see your misunderstanding. You think that the day of the week is important. It isn't at all!
You think the day of the month is of value. It is only of microscopic meaning in this context.
You think the month of the year is important. It is of interest in a minor way.
But you leave out what is important: the year!A "date" as used in history is a Year more than anything else. So without a year you don't have a date.You think a tradition based on some days after a full moon is something impressive. No one else does.You can go over and explain why this is so meaningful if you want to try.

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Which scholars and what is their evidence? So, no scroll of self admission constitutes proof in your eyes? Please promise never to serve on a jury would you?

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Linked addresses (URLs)were included and can be further read; they show that Egypt did in fact inflate, and scholars are saying this. Its not about no scroll of self-admission, but no disputation evidence from any source against a documented description prevailing. A jury won't have problems with my posts: a diary is admissable evidence in a court, even in a murder trial.

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And the bible has its share of incorrect statements and inflated storytelling and outright mistakes and lies so what is your point? That humans of ancient times were similar to those today? I would not expect that to be very enlightening would you?

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Lets first establish the point debated. But yes, ancient humans in ancient egypt were the same as us today - we would act the same under their conditions. And just as galileo did, one came up with a manifesto of human rights, which was the fulcrum factor at that time. The Exodus is about Inalienable Human Rights in the big picture - unless you want to disregard the resultant laws enshrined in that document - even as it changed the world? It is mirrowed with the right of freedom of belief and Rome's greatest war, represented single-handedly by Israel 2000 years ago: no myth here either.

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But you leave out what is important: the year!

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A "date" as used in history is a Year more than anything else. So without a year you don't have a date.

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You think a tradition based on some days after a full moon is something impressive. No one else does.

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You can go over and explain why this is so meaningful if you want to try.

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The year is not left out. Scolars date their findings in this region against dates in the OT, and these have been disputed and verified. An example relates to the dates given for King David - verified in the tel Dan discovery; there are numerous such examples. One cannot observe a month and week, annually, without a year; the Hebrew calendar is active today. The gregorian calendar is a contrived continuation of it. The 'year' datings of the establishment of Jerusalem as a Capital, for example, is determinable by calculating the thread of dates in the OT - this is performed, and this anniversary is not only celebrated annually, but is used and verified by archeologists today. The terms 'traditions' and 'full moons' is not applicable here: the OT calendar is regarded the most accurate and oldest in existence, and URL addressed links were supplied.

Amnosey.The 'day' the ten commandments were given is recorded as a saturday in the book of Exodus ('REMEMBER *THIS* DAY AS THE SABBATH'/EX). Care to explain how this is determinable - without a year, as you put it? Its a question of math!

<<<<'Enemies' signifies a battle to be free, and marks the only time an enslaved peoples escaped what was then the world's super-power, and followed by a period of a nation, a scientific cencus, the completion of the Mosaic books, the establishment of Israel in Canaan and its capital Jerusalem, and the temple destroyed by Babylon.<<<<IamJoseph, what makes you think “enemies” couldn’t mean anything else but a battle to be free?Today there are respectable scientists who see Jerusalem as the capital of Judah then, not Israel. There are good reasons to believe that region was split up in a north and south part. The south being Judah where Jerusalem is located. After Israel was destroyed the people fled to the south. I know this but I’m not your best scientist and recommend reading “the bible unearthed” for more details.<<<<< This inconsistancy is highlighted by Israel going on to be a nation in Canaan, unlike the Hyksos expulsion. <<<<<I thought Canaan was a province of Egypt, hence i don't see how you can talk about a battle to be free.!! i don't know how to use a quote function so my apologies for this, any pointers are appreciated!!Edited by Reding, : No reason given.