Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites

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You seem to have overlooked your original claim, the claim to which
I am enquiring, here it is again.

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In post number 5 you claimed: ” The Hyksos left no writings, and Israel does back-up their history with authentic, contemporanous accounts,

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Then I asked where I could find where Israel backs up Hyksos history, then you answer by saying in post 34 Hyksos don't have to be backed here. . What kind of discussion is this?

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Look, either you do not have evidence of Israel ”backing up’ Hyksos history or you don’t. If you do have evidence, could I please have that evidence as I am very interested in this area? If you don’t have any evidence then that is fine, just let me know so I can stop expecting to see it. Thanks.

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This is just semantics and I'm certain a bore to anyone reading it. Basic comprehension says, I meant Israel has backup of its history with egypt, and the hiksos does not relate to this back-up. Still an issue for you?

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How do we know that the new king who arose said something about the Hebrews?

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Its in the text - the same sentence you quoted. A new king arose, because the preists did not like the position given Joseph. This was a coup to restore the preist status, and this leads to the genocide of Israelite children.

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This is just silly. The earliest extant texts are the Dead Sea Scrolls, written more than one thousand years after the alleged event, so how do you know it is least distorted? Do you really think that the DSS texts are identical to earlier texts and if so why?
BTW, pick almost any ancient near eastern texts and they have not been altered at all. The Amarna Letters, Nuzi Texts, Mari Texts and so on, and you have original ancient texts, what do we have for the Bible? Not a single original text, and the earliest extant is over 1500 years after some events described init, that is pretty underwhelming.

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No, its not silly at all, and your remarks are not intelligent concerning ancient history and evidences. Firstly, the exact dates of this event are in dispute, which is not surprising or a negation of the event. The amarna and other finds are granite relics, discovered recently, and are not capable of changes while buried in the earth - these are now housed in museums. With the scrolls, that date is not when it was written: the scrolls represent a parcel of every book of the OT (except the book of esther), written 100 years apart the previous 1000 years, stretching from the Mosaic to psalms and prophetic scrolls, each identifying dates, names and places. There is nothing like this anywhere else, and it is not silly: it signifies multiple, ongoing historical credibility. The scrolls are also the same with today's OT, and the Septuagint of 300 BCE. In any case the scrolls, unchanged for 2300 years, represents the world's most undistorted document - excepting only stone etchings and relics which have been in the earth. IOW, there is no scripture or book which is unchanged for 2300 years. There is the book of the dead, but this is a prayer/epitaph, as opposed an historical document, and there is Hamurabi, which date is in much dispute: but that's about it. What's silly about it - the scrolls is also the first/oldest alphabetical books, and among 2 or 3 equivalent confirmations of ancient M/E history. The eight ruling chieftons of canaan, the moabites, the medianites and the philistines are foremost recordings of the OT.

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Its diarised by one person,

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The Bible itself doesn’t even claim this, this is just another fundy ”urban myth’.

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It does. The last para is an epitaph by Joshua affirming Moses' death.

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with the nomination of 3 million witnesses,

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Well we know this number is inaccurate, there simply wasn’t enough room for this amount of people and the growth rate is impossible for the time and place. The most amazing thing is that 3 million people are archaeologically invisible.

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The 3M figure is derived from an approximation of the count of soldiers, covering sub-totals of the 13 tribes, names, gender and age breakdowns, and may also includes what are listed as 'a multitude of the nations'. IOW, it is listed in the mode of a bona fide scientific cencus. But 250 years later, we have another cencus, which is 6 M. I find no motive for fake figures here - it is not a blatant exaggeration as inferred, and listed with much specific details:

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http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1024.htm
2 Samuel 24:
3. (5-9) The census is taken.

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And they crossed over the Jordan and camped in Aroer, on the right side of the town which is in the midst of the ravine of Gad, and toward Jazer. Then they came to Gilead and to the land of Tahtim Hodshi; they came to Dan Jaan and around to Sidon; and they came to the stronghold of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and the Canaanites. Then they went out to South Judah as far as Beersheba. So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

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a. When they had gone through all the land: It took almost 10 months to complete the census. David should have called off this foolish census during the ten months, but he didn't.

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b. Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king: he results showed that there were 1,300,000 fighting men among the twelve tribes, reflecting an estimated total population of about 6 million in Israel.

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Most of the places on the Exodus route have not been found! Over forty places mentioned and about 3 that’s been identified, that’s mighty impressive Jo.

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It is highly impressive - considering the time period and how many nations and wars traversed Egypt. Even one is sufficient. The oldest relic in India for example, is 2800 years old, so over 3000 years is among a small handful of history evidencing items.

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How could this author record his own death?

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How could Moses, who died 40 years after leaving Egypt, write that:

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Genesis 36:31

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And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.

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Now there was no King of Israel until Saul, nearly 400 years after Moses died!

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I am afraid that the Pentateuch is rife with anachronisms, and depending on which date you tell me that you wish to place the Exodus in (remember you have failed to provide this date so far), there could be a lot more.

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The reference to Edom is not of Israel's kings. Re exodus dates, this is at variance with scholras today, with the OT datings.
But that egypt was in battle with Israel over 3000 years ago is not in dispute (the Israel stele). Here's some date assessments for you:

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MERNEPTA
MERNEPTA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

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By G. Hirsch W. Max Muller

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Egyptian king, the fourth of the 19th dynasty; a prominent figure in the discussions concerning the historicalness and chronology of Israel's exodus from Egypt. He was the son and successor of the famous Rameses II. (Sesostris), who is known to have built the cities enumerated in Ex. i. 11. Consequently, no conclusion seemed more certain than this: Rameses II. was the Pharaoh of the oppression; Mernepta, that of the Exodus, which thus would date from the middle or end of the thirteenth century B.C. The discovery of the famous Israel inscription by Petrie ("Six Temples," plates 13-14) has now made this conclusion very doubtful. Line 27 in this inscription, a song of triumph over all foreign enemies of Egypt (Libyans, Hittites, Canaan, Ashkelon, Gezer, Yenu'ama), closes with the words: "Israel ["Y-s-ir(a)-'a-ra"] is annihilated (pulled out, without any [further] growth; Palestine has become like a widow [i.e., helpless] for Egypt." These words, dating from the fifth year of Mernepta, seem to point most naturally to Israel as settled in Palestine; though they have been construed as an allusion to the twelve tribes still wandering in the desert or still being held under bondage in Goshen.

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Mernepta reigned for at least twenty-five years, the first five of which were filled with desperate attacks on Egypt by Libyan tribes and by pirates from Europe and Asia Minor. Palestine and central Syria remained tributary, however. The buildings of the king (at Karnak, etc.) are not considerable. His mummy has recently been found at Thebes, and is now in the Museum at Cairo.E. G. H. W. M. M.

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Whose datings do you prefer, and if the Bible was this wondrous reliable texts that scholars use to date near eastern events how can there be any disagreement about the dates? That’s another strange one.

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I prefer to wait for some more conclusion from the ground for such an ancient period: we have not a single book here from elsewhere. It is not unusual that there are discrepensies here - one has to set this against unconfirmable datings even 2000 years later, like the NT. The situation is also frustrated by Israel being in dispersals and wars with its surrounds, virtually without pause. Most of Egypt's archives have been destroyed or plundered by Europe, and modern egypt destroyed at least one major Hebrew library.

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Well Biran states that it reads ”unequivocally’ as:

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[Jero]ram Bar [Ahab] and [Ahaz]iah Bar [Jeroham].

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How on earth can this be unequivocal? This is yet another example of the lengths that people will go to to try and prove the Bible accurate.

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Noll comments that ”ram Bar’ broken text could just as easily read ’[Hi]ram Bar [X, King of Tyre]. The ”iah Bar does not have to read Ahaziah bar Ahab. (Noll, K (1998), The God who is Among the Danites, JSOT 80 3-23, page 8.

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He's wrong. The ID is not determined solely by those factors.

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It is simply because there is not a single shred of evidence to support it

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That would render the Israelites as the greatest masters of fictional literature - you are too generous in bestowing such merit. No one can do so and none have.

As I said, circular reasoning.Your argument of the authenticity of this bible claim is that it is in the Bible. You are essentially saying that the pharaoh did say this and it make the Bible awesome and the evidence you have that the pharaoh said this is from the Bible! This is utterly circular. I am afraid you are the one who doesn’t really know what history is, and my remarks are completely in line with academic thought. How can the Bible be as supremely accurate as you say if so much is in dispute? However, the evidence available does negate the Book of Exodus if we take the Bible at face value, and there is not a single archaeologist who takes the Bible at face value today. I wouldn’t consider 1887 to be very recent! Indeed, and the Amarna Letter are one of many sources that negate the Exodus. I am struggling to understand what this paragraph says, can you rephrase it please? I’m sorry, but your view of the early books of the OT being historically sound is completely ignorant. NOTHING at all from the Book of Genesis through to the end of the Book of Judges has been verified by external evidence, this is a cold, hard fact. Bull.There are different versions of Isaiah for a start at Qumran, and the Septuagint was ditched by Jews because it was such a bad translation. The Amarna letters have remained undisturbed for 3400 years, and have never been tampered with, unlike your Bible. And hundreds of thousands of texts from Egypt, Mesopotamia, Syria, and all over Palestine. This is just ludicrous.How many texts do you wish me to name that have been unchanged for over 3 thousand years? You really do need to get up to speed on the available ancient texts mate. Here are a few you might wish to look up.
Over 350 Amarna Letters (you forgot them), The Al Alakh Tablets, The Mari Texts, The Nuzi Texts, Mesopotamian Laws of Ur-Nammu, The Edict of Ammisaduqa, Akkadian Texts from Syria and Assyria including The Treaty between Niqmepa of Alalakh and Ir-im of Tunip, Treaty between Idrimi and Pilliya, Treaty of Esarhaddon with Baal of Tyre, Babylonian and Assyrian historical texts including The Mother of Nabonidus, The dedication of the Shamash Temple by YAhdun-lim, The banquest of Ashurnasirpal II, Sumerian Hymns including, Hymn to Ninurta as God of Vegetation, Hymn to Ninurta as God of Wrath, Hymnal prayer of Enheduanna, I could go on and on. In the grand scheme of things the Hebrew Bible is quite young. Where are you getting this garbage from? Where does the Bible state that Moses wrote the Book of Exodus, and where does it state that Joshua wrote anything?How did Moses know that 400 years after his death there would be an Israelite monarchy? I know how it is arrived at, but no one today takes these figures literally, it is impossible for 70 people to turn into 3 million in 430 years. Plus the archaeological evidence does not support a group of this size in Egypt during the second millennium BCE. LOL, Jesus mate where on earth were these 6 million hiding. The thing is bud, the word for ”thousand’ doesn’t necessarily have to read ”thousand’, the word eleph can mean clan or tent, makes much more sense. One out of forty is highly impressive! LOL, Jesus mate do you want to buy a genuine piece of Jesus’ cross? How on Earth do you come up these things! What about relics from Harappa, or Mohenjo-daro? Yes it is. So the awesome book is not clear on the date?Which date do you go with? It is in dispute, no one has ever proved that the Israel of the Merneptah Stele and the Israel of the Bible are one and the same. What do you mean ”more conclusion from the ground’, how much more do you need before you fall into line with the facts? Yes we do, you even mention the Amarna Letters yourself. Not to mention the wealth of Egytian texts. No he isn’t wrong, it is completely in line with all of the inscription.Tell me, was Biran correct to say that this is an unequivocal reading given that so much is missing? Well not really, because when you place the Bible into Near eastern historical context, the Bible is a real mess. The Book of Exodus isn’t that impressive, it’s got some nice tales in it, but they are camp fire tales, myths and legends with no real history there.Brian

no. subtitles are stupid.abe. i think that subtitle is still appropriate anyways because he's not even capable of reading english.Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

oh wow, two generations. that's like 40 years. i'm so impressed with the vast difference in people there. oh right people lived 800 million years back then and it's all crap.i never said that judaism came from iraq; i said the people who became the jews came from iraq. and if i recall correctly, issac married a relative and jacob married a relative, purposely. so whatever cannanite link is by location only. no, their main claim to fame is their fancy buldings and god kings. every documentary i've seen on egypt since i was 2 has said that those buildings could not have been built by unskilled slave labor. and it took the israelites how long to build a great big building? if they could have done it before, don't you think they would have? no, i'm not quoting anything. i'm referencing common knowledge from the real world, you know, outside your dusty old book where people tell the truth. and yet it's in your dusty old book. i wasn't describing it, asshole. don't talk to me about recognizing the justice or injustice of genocide. also, try reading. it's amazing what people are actually saying when you get your head out of itself. what i was suggesting is that the murder of jewish babies does not justify the murder or entire peoples by the jews. cite it. like buttseks and eating lobster and cutting their hair? real politik.
next? maybe it requires correct comprehension to be described as integrated or exacting. i want what you're smoking. it would make life easier. hahahahhahahahahhaahahaha so because everyone else was doing it it was ok for the people of god to do it? wtf? regardless of 'common practice' bullshit, genocide is never ok. you make me sick. there were jews in tasmania? when? is it cause the tasmanians were killed? are all victims of genocide jews now? the ghettos in poland were built and inhabitted by the jews by choice. open your newspaper lately?

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As opposed to what - we know of canaan via OT narratives? The other writings, very meagre bits of letters and relics, and without dates and specific historical data, serve as reflections of the OT narratives.

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To me it makes sence that part of the findings correspond with the scriptures because it contains historical elements/locations. Wether that's sufficient to construct a reliable history is highly disputed lately. Fundamentalists are "lucky" to have the luxury of constructing theories with the vast amount of references in the scriptures and if you're familiar with our keen way of finding an explenation for absolutely everything than i'm sure you're prepared to give in to how lucky you are. The truth and facts can be mixed with exaggerations and lies. On top of that your truth is just an isolated truth, it is not an absolute truth. To claim otherwise would be just the same as saying that other religions (within or out of christianity) are flat out wrong. Why do you have to be right?I'm not sure of your assumption but certain relics and textual finds can excist on its own and can have a different story than written in the scriptures. It's a possibilty, why not?

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Yes, egypt had a history with canaan, which peoples travelled to and fro: this is recorded in the OT, whereby Abraham and his wife visited Egypt well before Joseph was born. Egypt did not speak hebrew, which indicates this was a new/different language in this region; it was also not spoken in Mesopotamia. The hebrew language and monotheism was a suspicious thing in this spacetime, which conflicted with divine kings and the absence of laws. The latter can be a valid reason why the eight kingdoms of Canaan rejected Israel and barred her entry; it is akin to promoting democracy in a lawless area of dictators.

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....and it was a very long history, 400+ years does say something. With Egypt being a superpower and having the loyalty of canaanite leaders, their strongholds and their almost obsessive way of controlling things, the most stupid thing the israelites could have done is finding a refuge in Canaan. I'm pretty sure the hebrew knew Canaan then.....hypothetically speaking.I would hardly call the hebrew language original, remember the Akkadic language...

Hi,Ever wonder why the Israelites never recorded this defeat by Merneptah?Ever wonder why no Egyptians are mentioned when Joshua claims to have conquered all of Palestine?These are fables.Brian.

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As I said, circular reasoning.

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Your argument of the authenticity of this bible claim is that it is in the Bible. You are essentially saying that the pharaoh did say this and it make the Bible awesome and the evidence you have that the pharaoh said this is from the Bible! This is utterly circular.

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Again, I said nothing like how you put it. The sentence was to correct you over another point, not as proof of history, but that the sentence was about Pharoah and the hebrews, not the Hiksos. Proof cannot come only from texts.

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How can the Bible be as supremely accurate as you say if so much is in dispute? However, the evidence available does negate the Book of Exodus if we take the Bible at face value, and there is not a single archaeologist who takes the Bible at face value today.

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There is not a single archeologist who gives more credence to any other scripture - even those 2500 years more recent. The fact is, there is no peoples today who can identify their history with a 3000 year reference proven by archeologists. The rejection of the Israel stele from Egypt only displays your own personal bias: the reference to Israel has no other options considering the descriptions. This stele is written in another language, which was not alphabetical, and accepted by scholars. If your disputing the Hebrews were in Egypt, then say so - what else can one gather from your posts? You are even disputing the Tel Dal and Solomon history, inferring that some 3000 years of history was faked in numerous books, centuries apart, and which form a thread of continuiy. I've never seen such an occurence elsewhere: try to fake your ancestry for ten generations and see what it involves - you won't even get names and places right, even in this PC age. Archeologists use 'NAMES' as the foremost means of ancient historical verifications - because these are true to its spacetime. If I posted 50 scholars accepting the Tel Dal find, you won't be impressed - so I wont.

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Indeed, and the Amarna Letter are one of many sources that negate the Exodus.

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Exactly the reverse is the case. These predate Israel, and thus it makes the absence here more credible, while giving more credence to the egyptian stele which DOES mention Israel.

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I am struggling to understand what this paragraph says, can you rephrase it please?

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I mean, if the scrolls are dated upto 250 BCE, it evidences a much earlier history in its recounting: this falls into the 2nd temple period, and after the war with the greeks (Hanuka) and the Septuagint date of 300 BCE. Logic says, if the Septuagint date predates the scrolls, everything in this parcel was known previously. There are coins and relics found from the 1st temple period, which predates the Septuagint and the babylonian destruction of Jerusalem. The scrolls evidence a predating history.

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I’m sorry, but your view of the early books of the OT being historically sound is completely ignorant. NOTHING at all from the Book of Genesis through to the end of the Book of Judges has been verified by external evidence, this is a cold, hard fact.

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Both the interaction with ancient Egypt, and the Israelite rule in Canaan - the entire vocation of the OT - are not in dispute. Some 20 ancient nations, and many routes and mapings have been verified. Today's Jordan was ancient Moab, and Ruth was a Moabitis who converted to become an Israelite - while this is not hard proof, it is an evidence of a verifiable history. Mount Nebo, in today's Jordan, is a popular tourist attraction for its grand views across canaan - first described in Dueteronomy as Moses' last stand: co-incidence or a re-write? While Moses is not a proven historical figure as yet - there is volumous evidence of the OT narratives. I'm not sure to what extent your rejection goes - nor how you see the Israelites securing the land of Canaan, a principle ally of Egypt. The latter becomes more focused when you reject even the small cencus figures - it means an even smaller group prevailed!

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There are different versions of Isaiah for a start at Qumran, and the Septuagint was ditched by Jews because it was such a bad translation.

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Its not regarded a bad translation: Josephus sites this and many scholars do so too - but this does not negate the translation even by your rejectionist premise. It means the Greeks, a superpower at the time, translated it, and this told of an ancient history well before 300 bce. The greeks went to great lenghts to ensure a good translation, applied intelligent verse and chapter indexes, and begat their ahpha-beta alphabetics from the Hebrew alef-bet (Josephus docs) - evidencing the ancient status of the OT; we also have burial sites in Iraq (Babylon) of sages recorded in the OT. The Septuagint translation was requested by Alexander upon his visit of the Jerusalem temple:[Alexander in the Jerusalem Temple][The great conqueror esteemed the Jews and their history, allowing them to remain autonomous. In his celebrated arrival to the Temple in Jerusalem, he is received with great honor by a hailing congregation parade, and the Priests proclaim their first born sons will be named Alexander, to be forever honored as a Jewish name. Alexander’s request - subsequent to an oracle - was that the five books of Moses (”Torah’/Heb) be translated into the Greek language, marking the first translation of the Hebrew bible]7/142. THE SEPTUAGINT BIBLE.[The First translation of the Hebrew Bible]The Greeks initiated the Torah (later referred to as The Old Testimony) as a worldly manifesto, harkening to its laws of Democracy (”Let the Majority Decide’) and Equal Justice for all. The Greeks also begat their Alpha-Betical writings from the Hebrew Aleph-Bet, adding intelligent numberings to the Hebrew Bible’s verses and paragraphs, and separating the vowels and numerals from the world’s first alphabetical books. The Greeks also renamed the Torah as The Septuagint (Five Books/Ger.). Here, osmosis of two great mindsets and beliefs occurred, resulting in an Olympian battle of traditions, religions and minds - each vying for the torch which would illuminate humanity. Here, Paganism clashed with Monotheism, Zeus confronted Yahweh, and a miniscule Middle-Eastern Tribal Nation begat Centre stage beside the world’s most Olympian Super Power.

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How many texts do you wish me to name that have been unchanged for over 3 thousand years?

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Just ONE book, with identifiable historical stats will do. A book is a continueing narrative with multiple pages. This excludes tomb stones, commercial reciepts and stone etchings (amarna tablets). I would like to see something resembling say a 25% of the Mosaic, and this need not be alphabetical or in great prose - just historical, with dates or periods. Thus I say, there is no equivalence of the OT anyplace, and for sure without follow-up ancient writings which form a thread of continuity. Don't bother to look is my advice.

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You really do need to get up to speed on the available ancient texts mate. Here are a few you might wish to look up.
Over 350 Amarna Letters (you forgot them), The Al Alakh Tablets, The Mari Texts, The Nuzi Texts, Mesopotamian Laws of Ur-Nammu, The Edict of Ammisaduqa, Akkadian Texts from Syria and Assyria including The Treaty between Niqmepa of Alalakh and Ir-im of Tunip, Treaty between Idrimi and Pilliya, Treaty of Esarhaddon with Baal of Tyre, Babylonian and Assyrian historical texts including The Mother of Nabonidus, The dedication of the Shamash Temple by YAhdun-lim, The banquest of Ashurnasirpal II, Sumerian Hymns including, Hymn to Ninurta as God of Vegetation, Hymn to Ninurta as God of Wrath, Hymnal prayer of Enheduanna, I could go on and on. In the grand scheme of things the Hebrew Bible is quite young.

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I know most of these, and they predate Israel. These are not books either. The OT is the first alphabetical and historical books - itself an important factor.

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Where are you getting this garbage from?

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There are some 20 nations recorded in the OT - that's where from. The Moabites and philistines are foremost recorded here.

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Where does the Bible state that Moses wrote the Book of Exodus, and where does it state that Joshua wrote anything?

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That Moses is the author is in the texts; that Joshua wrote the final sentences is from ancient sages' commentary.

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How did Moses know that 400 years after his death there would be an Israelite monarchy?

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You have this confused. Moses only wrote the five books; the rest is post-Torah (Pentatuch) writings. The book of Kings was writen much later, after the Judges period.

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I know how it is arrived at, but no one today takes these figures literally, it is impossible for 70 people to turn into 3 million in 430 years. Plus the archaeological evidence does not support a group of this size in Egypt during the second millennium BCE.

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It need not be taken literally; it is an improvised approximation only. The 3M figure is not stated in the texts.

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LOL, Jesus mate where on earth were these 6 million hiding.

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This is some 300 years after the exodus period. Aside from the texts, I have no other proof of it, nor do i see any reason to find a deliberate faking here: it serves no motive, and generally the OT does not shy away of negatives.

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The thing is bud, the word for ”thousand’ doesn’t necessarily have to read ”thousand’, the word eleph can mean clan or tent, makes much more sense.

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No, alef by itself does not mean a 1000, nor can you impress that the texts were not understandable for 1000s of years: there is the Hebrew calendar which had to be calculated for numerous festivals every year. These guys knew how to read and write better than anyone!

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How on Earth do you come up these things! What about relics from Harappa, or Mohenjo-daro?

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Exactly, this is one of the oldest finds, which makes the OT among a small handful of items of ancient historical items, is my point.

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The reference to Edom is not of Israel's kings.

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Yes it is.

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Edom does not represent Israel; it is regarded the ancestry of some european nations.

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Re exodus dates, this is at variance with scholras today, with the OT datings.

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So the awesome book is not clear on the date?

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Its not clear comprehensively, and not from the current knowledge of discoveries.

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What do you mean ”more conclusion from the ground’, how much more do you need before you fall into line with the facts?

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I don't wait for proof of David to Rome, but I would like to see more evidences which further prove those items which affirm what has been disputed by some, as continuity, and judging by the consistant discoveries emerging, I think much will be verified in the near future. I am satisfied that the Israelites were in Egypt (Exodus gives the first contemporary diet of ancient egypt, and that the nile never runs dry), and that they ruled canaan for a 1000 years till 586BCE, and continued again after a 70 year break till the Roman invasion. i would like to see something from the Judges period, specially the battle faught by deborah.

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we have not a single book here from elsewhere.

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Yes we do, you even mention the Amarna Letters yourself. Not to mention the wealth of Egytian texts.

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There are 1000s of such bits, but no historical books: the OT marks a variant in kind than degree here.

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Well not really, because when you place the Bible into Near eastern historical context, the Bible is a real mess. The Book of Exodus isn’t that impressive, it’s got some nice tales in it, but they are camp fire tales, myths and legends with no real history there.

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Then you must show me some other mythical books with the same stats. The book of exodus is pervasive of dates, numbers, nations, wars, and names - even containing aerial map depictions of the terrain, and distances between towns and routes. The Egyptian to canaan coastal highway (The Kings Road) is first mentioned here. The first recording of the ancient egyptian language, transliterated into Hebrew, is the first two opening words of the Ten Commandments, namely 'Anno Chi' ('I am'); these are the only two words not in hebrew, and appears directed at the pharoah, who spoke no hebrew, yet proclaimed himself divine. he must have been greatly chagrined by the Hebrews!

it was made from a photo taken with the huge aerial camera that jesus gave them. you can see it on the windows 95 cds.

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Ever wonder why the Israelites never recorded this defeat by Merneptah?

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Ever wonder why no Egyptians are mentioned when Joshua claims to have conquered all of Palestine?

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These are fables.

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I don't think so. The failures of the israelites with other nations is amply recorded, signifying a credibility here. That Joshua was unable to defeat other nations in Canaan, is well recorded, especially concerning the philistines who remained undefeated till David.On the other hand, if the israelites prevailed in leaving Egypt, it puts PAID why this superpower could not save the canaanites - and the Israelites did enter canaan and rule it, even establishing Jerusalem on a hilltop as the capital, and finally prevailing over the philistines as well - despite Egypt?

um. he was referring to genesis 36:31 which is in the torah and is allegedly written by moses. explain how moses knew that 400 years later there would be kings in israel. i don't recall there being discussion in genesis or exodus about god revealing the future to moses past his time in the desert.

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it was made from a photo taken with the huge aerial camera that jesus gave them. you can see it on the windows 95 cds.

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Aerial mapping descriptions: this refers to the nations and routes around Egypt to canaan, specially in Numbers, where the Israelites had to take the route around Moab (Jordan) and enter Canaan via another route - when thoroughfare was denied them. The NT does not contain such aerial descriptions. You'd need a compass and much more to travel from Egypt to Canaan today - via a path other than the coastal one.

i'm sure there's a highway with signs and no need for a compass.Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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i'm sure there's a highway with signs and no need for a compass.

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Sure. The bus leaves Goshen every hour for Canaan, which is a 40 year journey, or one can board the express train via Mount Sinai for a 100 extra shekels - just follow the signs. Carry bottled water - in case the wells are dry.

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um. he was referring to genesis 36:31 which is in the torah and is allegedly written by moses.

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Gen 36:31 And these [are] the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.

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explain how moses knew that 400 years later there would be kings in israel. i don't recall there being discussion in genesis or exodus about god revealing the future to moses past his time in the desert.

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Moses is here referring to Israel having no kings - when all other nations did. I've no idea why anyone needs to be responded to when they have a comprhension problem with the simplest example of a texts. Nor that anyone should pose such questions, while appearing so arrogant of debating in a science thread: can one speak science when their comprehension is nil? I held back to see if *ANYONE ELSE HERE* (Hello?!) would correct them - but no such luck. These are an exacting, intergrated, mathematical texts of an ancient period - and should be examined respectfully, as one would a hedy, physics equation.Esau was not 400 years after Moses, but 400 years before. Esau was the grandson of Abraham, and son of Isaac. The quoted verse is presented with 'THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF ESAU' - a preamble to guide the reader in its context, with further indications in 43 verses of names which are not mistakable what generation is being discussed - with names of Ishmael, Abraham's son ('Basemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth'); the passage includes almost a 100 ancient names, true to its spacetime, detailing a thread which can be tracked to many nations (Esau = Edom) and lands. Here are selected verses which shows your error of textual comprehension:

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1 Now these are the generations of Esau--the same is Edom.

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2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah the daughter of Anah, the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite,

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3 and Basemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth.

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40 And these are the names of the chiefs that came of Esau, according to their families, after their places, by their names: the chief of Timna, the chief of Alvah, the chief of Jetheth;

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43 the chief of Magdiel, the chief of Iram. These are the chiefs of Edom, according to their habitations in the land of their possession. This is Esau the father of the Edomites.

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Whew! Mercy! Its become so that its not science anymore but a neo radicalised dogmatic 'religious science'. Its exactly like a different religious group hell bent of their beliefs. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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I don't think so. The failures of the israelites with other nations is amply recorded, signifying a credibility here. That Joshua was unable to defeat other nations in Canaan, is well recorded, especially concerning the philistines who remained undefeated till David.

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to which failures and how many of all the events are you referring to? I would need to study more but i'm sure others are asking the same, would be curious to know your references, although i'm aware of the biblical stories...

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On the other hand, if the israelites prevailed in leaving Egypt, it puts PAID why this superpower could not save the canaanites - and the Israelites did enter canaan and rule it, even establishing Jerusalem on a hilltop as the capital, and finally prevailing over the philistines as well - despite Egypt?

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why would the israelites fight a superpower to leave to practically another part of Egypt under the umbrella of freedom? A "nation" that dumb shouldn't be a match for a superpower!Besides that how would you know the israelites "entered" canaan as opposed to being nomads who grew within and already excisted in Canaan?