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Author Topic:   Laws in the US that restrict the rights of Christians
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 84 (421869)
09-14-2007 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lithodid-Man
09-14-2007 8:39 PM


Slaves to Christianity?
So I thought it would be instructive to hear specific laws which are designed to restrict Christianity.
Easy: you can no longer own slaves.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle
Edited by RAZD, : qs

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 84 (422113)
09-15-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
09-15-2007 8:29 PM


They're always listless when it comes to details?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 84 (422537)
09-17-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
09-17-2007 4:28 PM


bias, oppression and discrimination
There are no laws, that I am aware of, that are clear cut cases outright bias and discrimination against Christians. Therefore, I'm not sure there will be a lot of play on this thread.
Kind of cuts into the argument about bias, oppression and discrimination though doesn't it? Kind of cuts it to shreds eh?
To answer your question, there are no laws that specifically target Christians or any other group outright. At most, the complaint is a misinterpretation of current laws-- such as, the Establishment Clause.
The EC seems pretty straightforward to me, but for some reason, this has been taken to an extreme.
Even though this extreme interpretation has not resulted in any laws that show bias, oppression and discrimination (see above).
Could it be that what you want is an interpretation that favors christianity above other beliefs, which can then be used as a basis for laws that show bias, oppression and discrimination against other religions and beliefs?
That what you see as bias, oppression and discrimination in this regard is a refusal to go that route?
It is not an extreme interpretation if it protects the rest of us from your - still currently - illegal desires to impose christian bias, oppression and discrimination on others.
For the record, keeping christians from practicing public bias, oppression and discrimination is not bias, oppression and discrimination against christians, but against bias, oppression and discrimination.
This is usually interpreted from a false belief that at one time christianity did have a favored position in the government of this country from which to impose christian bias, oppression and discrimination, but in fact this does not and never did exist. But even if it HAD, there would be no reason to instigate this again, as we have grown since then: civil rights apply to everyone equally.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : last paragraph

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-17-2007 4:28 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 84 (422675)
09-17-2007 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
09-17-2007 10:18 PM


Re: bias, oppression and discrimination
Not in my estimation, because bias can still exist without specific laws being forwarded by Congress. ... "But how on earth will we be able to justify slavery then?" Eh, we'll just say they aren't actually people. Eventually a law passed stating that negro's were only 2/3 human.
And the original constitution specifically excluded them (and women) from voting. That is bias and discrimination isn't it? We've had amendments to the constitution to address these issues haven't we?
And, as you acknowledge, no such laws have been passed regarding christians. Once again the lack of such laws is evidence against your position.
The EC is very straightforward. Basically, the fledgling US nation said we don't want dictators imposing a state sanctioned religion, nor do we want dictators suppressing people from expressing their religious beliefs. So they erected an imaginary law.
Somehow this turned in to a one-sided debate where only the protection of the state is highly regarded.
No, it is the protection of all beliefs as well as of the state that is highly regarded. This is entirely consistent with the original founding fathers position.
Again, the fact that you argue this shows that you want to interpret this to give some advantage to christianity over other beliefs, NOT that you are being oppressed and discriminated against, but that you want to be the ones in charge of bias, oppression and discrimination.
See, that's absurd. You are trying to make it so that Judeo-Christian ethics can't be regarded in a secular setting. Somehow the reverse doesn't work, as people want to impose taxes on churches.
Like the "ethics" of slave ownership? No, what we can use are real valid contemporarily consistent ethics without needing to regard where they came from. If some happen to be consistent with "Judeo-Christian ethics" then so what.
This country has always been characterized as a Christian nation with a strong understanding that allowing its citizens to choose freely its religious affiliations is the best way to run a society. They fled from religious persecution. The last thing they wanted was to force others, via the law, for people to conform to their brand of religiosity.
And that is why christianity should get no special favors from government. The fact that they don't is not bias, oppression and discrimination against christianity because there is no favoritism for any belief.
The perception of bias, oppression and discrimination against christianity is false.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 84 (423008)
09-19-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
09-18-2007 1:03 AM


the imposition of morality
The only one imposing their morality on anyone, as it were, seems to be the opposing side.
Really?
Are gays and lesbians forcing you to behave as if you are gay or lesbian?
Or are you (fundamentalist christians) forcing gays and lesbians to behave as if they are not gays and lesbians?
Is a system of laws that lets gays and lesbians be gays and lesbians AND that lets fundamentalist christians be fundamentalist christians in any way create a kind of bias, oppression and discrimination against fundamentalist christians?
Does a system of laws that lets gays and lesbians be gays and lesbians AND that lets fundamentalist christians be fundamentalist christians in any way impose any morality on either group?
Rational answers only please, substantiated with facts (no emotional outrage please).
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 54 of 84 (428034)
10-14-2007 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
10-14-2007 7:36 AM


Re: What about the Chaplains?
So whats wrong with Seculows argument?
It's wrong.
Under the guise of free speech, the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was given access to Columbia University and national media in the United States.
This is a public forum, not run by the government, and people aren't required to participate.
Christian military chaplains have been denied the right to pray in Jesus’ name for fear of retribution and even discipline by military officials.
This is not a public forum. It's the military, a branch of the government, and being run by the government it needs to apply to all people equally.
Plus military chaplains are paid by the government. Furthermore they volunteered for the job with the provisions in place, so they are not restricted by the law -- they chose their place.
This is another example of christians wanting to get special privileges instead of behaving like everyone else.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : more on topic

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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