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Author
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Topic: The "Circle of the Earth"
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 103 of 307 (426696)
10-08-2007 1:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by simple
10-08-2007 12:28 PM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: The term flying saucer is the modern one, of course the wheels of God are not 'saucers'. But, if one was to ride on the thing, one would see the people as little bugs in size. One also could maintain an orbit. An orbit is just an uncontrolled trajectory. A rock can orbit. What kind of puny god would need a flying contraption to do it? If that's what "the circle of the earth" means, it's a pretty demeaning picture of God.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 12:28 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 105 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 1:39 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 107 of 307 (426704)
10-08-2007 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 105 by simple
10-08-2007 1:39 PM
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simple writes: Hey, why not have this Rolls Royce of flying machines, that can travel the expanse of this universe is style?? The question is, "Why would He?" What appurtenances outside of God could possibly make His travel "in style"? How could anything aside from God be relevant?
While visiting earth.... Again, a very belittling picture of God, suggesting He isn't here all the time.
Either way the verse is wonderfully bang on. As somebody has already mentioned, the horizon is always seen as a circle. The ancient writers would have recognized that the higher you get, say on a mountain top, the bigger that circle is. The verse implies that God is higher than any mountain top, higher than man can ever get. Your "orbit" brings Him down to a height that man can attain. The verse is "bang on" enough already without a lot of science-fiction claptrap embellishments.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 105 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 1:39 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 3:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 113 of 307 (426738)
10-08-2007 4:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 111 by simple
10-08-2007 3:53 PM
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simple writes: In the time of the major prophets, they still had no rockets, or even planes, if you recall! Irrelevant. People reading the text today would put God in the So What category if He was in a mere orbit.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 3:53 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 5:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 120 of 307 (426776)
10-08-2007 6:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by simple
10-08-2007 5:08 PM
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simple writes: neither do we appear like the Almighty, and ride in a sapphire throne. Shackling God to any material contrivance is utterly demeaning.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by simple, posted 10-08-2007 5:08 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by jar, posted 10-08-2007 6:16 PM | | ringo has not replied | | | Message 128 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 3:11 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 132 of 307 (426950)
10-09-2007 9:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 131 by simple
10-09-2007 3:26 AM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: The book actually, is not Isiah, but Ezekiel. No. The book actually is Isaiah:
quote:
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
This is the passage we have been discussing. The topic is "The Circle of the Earth", not Ezekiel's wheels. See Message 1. Edited by Ringo, : Spelelling.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 3:26 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 137 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 2:56 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 146 of 307 (427091)
10-09-2007 6:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by simple
10-09-2007 5:09 PM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: God sitteth on the circle. Why would He be sitting? Why indeed? The word "sit" has more to do with where He is situated than with what position His "body" is in. He is situated above us. You're ignoring the context of the verse, which I quoted for you:
quote:
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
It's comparing His power to the powers of men. By describing Him as a little green Martian in a spaceship, you're diminishing Him to our level. The "circle" can not be an orbit because that would be a constraint, in direct contradiction to the text.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 5:09 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 147 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 6:48 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 148 of 307 (427107)
10-09-2007 7:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 147 by simple
10-09-2007 6:48 PM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: You seem to want Him so far above, in some ethereal form, that there is no reality to Him? It's not what I want, it's what the text says. Once again, the passage makes no sense if God is just another Martian in a sputtering, smoke-belching contraption.
There is no constraint to Him coming here for a visit.... An orbit is constrained, by definition. If God can wander about as He pleases, it's not an orbit.
You therefore make the bible sound like a pack of fables. Well, there's nothing wrong with fables, of course. It's better to learn something from a fable than to pretend it's a science textbook.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by simple, posted 10-09-2007 6:48 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 152 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 1:48 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 154 of 307 (427145)
10-10-2007 2:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 152 by simple
10-10-2007 1:48 AM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: It talks of some "circle" that He sits on, where the earth folks look like grasshoppers. That in no way takes away from His being all powerful. It's your silly flying Model T that takes away from His being all powerful.
Of course He can go where He pleases, and even hover, as the bible says He has done. And that's not an orbit. It makes no sense for a passage about His power to confine Him to an orbit.
What is more limiting to the Almighty, to have Him spend a little time in His mobile throne over earth one time, or to have Him write a whole book of sheer baloney, and nonsense, and fables, and claim it is true!!!!!!! Obviously, it's more limiting for Him to go putt-putting around in a material vehicle. (By the way, you're the one who said "baloney" and "nonsense", not me. Fables are neither.)
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 1:48 AM | | simple has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 157 of 307 (427148)
10-10-2007 2:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 156 by simple
10-10-2007 2:11 AM
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Re: The circle of the earth
simple writes: I just cannot see how having wheels takes anything away. Must be some conception you have. I'm sorry your conception of God is so small. Edited by Ringo, : Cpelling.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 2:11 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 158 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 2:21 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 159 of 307 (427151)
10-10-2007 2:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 158 by simple
10-10-2007 2:21 AM
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simple writes: ... a mere fable.... You don't seem to have any understanding of what a fable is. But the topic is about what "the circle of the earth" means in Isaiah - in particular, whether or not the author(s) knew that the earth is spheroidal. The passage quite clearly indicates God looking down on a circular horizon. There is no hint of motion on His part - and any motion would detract from His omnipresence and ruin the story - so the "orbit" notion is a non-starter. Even if the "orbit" was plausible, it says nothing about sphericity.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 2:21 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 160 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 3:51 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 163 of 307 (427210)
10-10-2007 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 160 by simple
10-10-2007 3:51 AM
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simple writes: WHO says that verse has to be speaking about the shape of the earth? "The circle of the earth". The most direct reading of that phrase is the shape of the earth, not the path of motion of some object not even mentioned in the verse. "The inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers". The most direct reading of that phrase is that God sees them from a distance. Again, there is no mention whatsoever of God moving.
A machine that could travel more than trillions of times the present speed of present light, or hover at a standstill.... Now, that is certainly "making stuff up", as anybody can see. But I'll remind you again: even if the "orbit" nonsense was plausible, it's not the topic. The topic is about whether or not the phrase "circle of the earth" suggests that the author(s) of Isaiah knew that the earth is spheroidal. You have made it very clear that what you call an "orbit" isn't a real orbit at all. God would be free to move about in any direction at any speed and any height in this "vehicle" of His. Unless the motion is constrained by gravity, it isn't an orbit.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 160 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 3:51 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 166 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 3:39 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 167 of 307 (427248)
10-10-2007 3:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 166 by simple
10-10-2007 3:39 PM
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simple writes: You use your limited scope of forces available to a spiritual vessel, to imagine it needs gravity to plot a course or orbit. Yes. This is a science thread and the laws of physics apply. Your fantasy "spiritual vessel" has no place in this discussion.
The shape of the earth bit is pure unbased speculation, that you cannot even loosely relate to the actual text. Speculation or not, that is the issue of this thread: Did the author(s) of Isaiah know that the earth is "round"? Your "orbit" or "hovering" doesn't address that issue at all. God could presumably pedal His celestial tricycle around an object of any shape.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by simple, posted 10-10-2007 3:39 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by simple, posted 10-11-2007 2:12 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 171 of 307 (427317)
10-11-2007 2:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 170 by simple
10-11-2007 2:12 AM
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simple writes: They do not apply to God, or the bible get used to it, like it or not. If your little law was valid you simply may not discuss them in the confines of physical only laws. You misunderstand. The laws of physics do apply in this thread and your conception of God does not.
The verse is the core issue here, remember. Finding out what that circle is, is not science. The core - and only - issue here is how the Bible stands in relation to science. If you ignore science, you automatically forfeit the debate.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by simple, posted 10-11-2007 2:12 AM | | simple has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 186 of 307 (427807)
10-13-2007 1:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 179 by simple
10-13-2007 12:09 AM
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simple writes: You won't find science against the bible, but in your head. Where have I said anything about "science against the Bible"? I'm talking about both science and the Bible against simple. The Bible quite plainly talks about the shape of the earth, as seen from a height. Whether that circular view indicates a flat disc or a side-view of a globe is the topic we are discussing. There is no way that an "orbit" can be derived from the text. If the "circle" was an orbit, then God would be no better than a rock in a fixed path. But what you describe is plainly not an orbit. It's a path with no fixed direction or altitude. If He's free to move around like that, it's no orbit and the "circle" is irrelevant to it. Either way, you're wrong.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 12:09 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 190 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 3:28 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 194 of 307 (427881)
10-13-2007 10:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 190 by simple
10-13-2007 3:28 AM
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simple writes: How about the circuit of the universe? There is no "circuit of the universe" in the passage we are discussing. You need to look at Isaiah 40 and understand what it means before you can assume that other passages are related.
Foe example we could say something circled the earth!! We've only been saying "circled the earth" since we've known the earth is round. In this discussion, the shape of the earth is the question. Claiming that "the circle of the earth' means going "around" the earth is a circular argument.
Anyhow, if God took His wheels over the earth, and hovered over an area He wanted to focus on, He could sit on the circuit of the earth. No He wouldn't. Hovering is not circular motion. Edited by Ringo, : Spleleing.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels -------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 190 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 3:28 AM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 200 by simple, posted 10-13-2007 4:57 PM | | ringo has replied |
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