Evolution is a religion. Creation is a religion.

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Christian writes:
Do you have evidence that there is no evidence of creation or that the bible is right? If you can't prove evolution, why do you disprove creation?

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I think you might have the wrong idea about the positions of the opposing sides. Evolutionists believe there is little to no evidence supporting Creationism and that it is thinly disguised religion. They are not trying to "disprove creation." Absent Creationist attempts to promote Creationism as science in the public schools no one outside evangelical circles would know or care about Creationism and there would be no debate.I think you're actually responding to some of the antagonistic replies to some of your expressed religious beliefs, such as that the truth of your religion has been proven over and over. In a debate the assertions made in support of a position are fair game, and you made your religious beliefs fair game when you offered them in support of your position. No one here began with the goal of trying to prove your religion wrong, they're just responding to claims you yourself made.

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You claim there is evidence when all there is are beliefs and guesses.

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Much evidence has been provided you in this thread. One demonstrates evidence false by addressing it, not ignoring it.

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Where do you see your definition? I've even heard evolution referred to as the "Ultimate Reality"

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You will not find a pathway through your definitions leading to the unambiguous conclusion that evolution is synonymous with religion, both because language is too fluid for almost any word to have a single unambiguous meaning, but more importantly simply because evolution is not religion. The theory of evolution is accepted because of broad supporting evidence uncovered through years of field and lab and intellectual work based upon the scientific method. Religious beliefs are accepted on faith.--Percy

You are confused as to what science is, and isn't.Repeating your misunderstanding and erronious opinions will not get you very far here, I'm afraid.Read the link I provided to you.Here it is again: http://www.skepdic.com/science.htmlMake sure to also read the internal link found within the text about Creation science, too.If you are confused by anything there, or would like to discuss anything in deatail, please cut n paste the bit you would like to talk about, and we will go from there.Until you show that you understand the basics of what science is, I see very little point in discussing things with you.Please be different from most creationists and atually read the links I have provided, so we can engage in intelligent discussion.------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

quote:

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Originally posted by LudvanB:
Thats true...Kent Hovind did receive a PHD in some barn school somewhere in Florida. A Doctor of what exactly,i dont really know...probably of theology or something to that effect.

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"Dr." Hovind PURCHASED his PhD from a diploma mill called "Patriot University" which is operated out of a split-level in Colorado. Check out the photo, it's great for a laugh: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/hovind/wild_hovind.htmlAlso, there is a link on this page to an account of someone who tried to claim Hovind's prize. It explains the rigged nature of the challenge, and wasn't able to get Hovind to show that he was good for the prize money, either.From the essay, "Some Questionable Creationist Credentials" at TalkOrigins, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.htmlKent Hovind (b. 195?)Kent Hovind is a young-earth creationist who gives frequent public lectures on evolution and creationism. He is well-known for repeating the claim that the remains of a basking shark found by Japanese fishermen off the coast of New Zealand were actually those of a recently deceased plesiosaur.Hovind claims to possess a masters degree and a doctorate in education from Patriot University in Colorado. According to Hovind, his 250-page dissertation was on the topic of the dangers of teaching evolution in the public schools. Formerly affiliated with Hilltop Baptist Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Patriot University is accredited only by the American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, an accreditation mill that provides accreditation for a $100 charge. Patriot University has moved to Alamosa, Colorado and continues to offer correspondence courses for $15 to $32 per credit. The school's catalog contains course descriptions but no listing of the school's
faculty or their credentials. Name It and Frame It lists Patriot University as a degree mill [3].------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-13-2002]

quote:

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
quick question quick reply. says 2000 years of christians and even more years of judaism.

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Well, if the length of time a religion has been around is what makes it the "best" to you, shouldn't you actually be following one of the ancient Asian religions?------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

quote:

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Originally posted by Christian1:
Evolution and Science do not mesh, Science is Evolutions worst nightmare. Evolution is a belief such as Creation.

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You’re making this claim illustrates a lack of familiarity with science. Evolution is based on evidence. Evidence you apparently find difficult to discuss. Do you think that by simply dismissing the evidence with a wave of the hand, you are actually refuting it ? How can you refute without first acknowledging it ?

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Can you prove that Evolution is acurate, can you prove it with science, please...
no more theories about why Evolution is true. Ok next point.......

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You are now addressing points that no one made. Please show me where anyone made this claim.
Can you comprehend the difference between claiming:
‘evolution is true’ -and
‘evolution is supported by evidence’ ?

quote:

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Proof refers to mathematics. Shall we discuss science instead ?
[reply] No, Science and Math work hand in hand, hmmmm, was I talking math? I could have sworn I was talking about Evolution, Science, and Creation. This is a phrase used to deter you for the orignal question. Can you prove Evolution with science which what Evolution is claimed to be?.....hmmmmm... next point....

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Theories are NEVER proven. They can only be DISPROVEN — or falsified.
Why do you insist that science provide PROOF ? You ever hear of the ‘blood from a stone’ analogy ?
Science has no proof — merely tons of evidence, which you still have never addressed.Do you intend on ever addressing our pointsor is this as good as it gets ?

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Proof refers to mathematics. Please do not get this mixed up. and Hovind knows even less about REAL science than you know of spell checkers.

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[reply] My ability to spell is completely irrelivent as evolutionist's abilty to lie become irrelivent to them when they are attempting to prove thier theory is SCIENCE...... next point.... ::tired::

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Fair enough. I’m a lousy speller, myself and I rely heavily upon the spell checker. My point was, Hovind’s objections and even his challenge do not address real science. Hovind needs a ‘science-checker’ the same way I need a spell-checker. He’s mistaken and apparently oblivious to that fact.And speaking of tiredcan we drop this PROVE IT crap ? Or is this your best method of AVOIDING the evidence that you find so troubling ? Running away will not help your cause.

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I've seen the bible proven to be acurate time and time again

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Like Pi = 3 ?
You’ll have to show me your work first.
[reply] work? God already showed you his work

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I never said I doubted God. I doubt the Bible. There’s a BIG difference, my friend.
Actually, the Bible asserts that Pi = 3 when our understanding of mathematics evaluate Pi at approx. 3.1415926535897932384626434
Your work I requested was your PROOF that Pi = 3. (we can use the ‘P’ word in math)

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, look around, this didn't just....HAPPEN!! oh yeah, "POOF"....LOL

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POOF ? That’s more or less a description of the creation events in Genesis, unless you can demonstrate the MECHANISMS employed by God to create everything. Otherwise, POOF is the story YOU are sticking tonot science. Science explores the mechanisms responsible for evolution. Scientists can’t investigate POOF.
That’s Hovind’s domain.

quote:

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How about when Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime?

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[reply] which life? not time, don't be confused.

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Matthew, 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

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[reply] some of you will be saved, some will not. hmmmmmmm. mabye?

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What ?!? Are you trying to ‘interpret’ scripture to me ?
Tell us why do you feel the need to CHANGE it’s LITERAL meaning ?
Perhaps then you’ll tell us how YOUR interpretation is the ONLY possible one. Then explain the clear message in these verses:Matthew, 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.Matthew, 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass , till all these things be fulfilled.How will you re-interpret the word ‘generation’ ? Or maybe you can twist the meaning of the word This ?
NahFulfilled is an easier word to spin to support your agenda.

quote:

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is THAT ‘proven to be acurate [sic] time and time again’ ? That’s some pretty sloppy standards of accuracy.

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[reply] has the second coming happened yet? Which generation is being refered to? The generation of man? The generation of man after the first coming of Christ? hmmmmm.....sloppy?? if you say so.

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Oh, I see. You can’t make any sure sense of it either. If you say so Now that you mention it, it’s meaning is NOT very clear at all. It makes for great potential to spin a different meaning as needed.
I was thinking that He meant the generation of those he was preaching to. Ya knowthe people listening ?
Those Apostles ?? .like Matthew ?

quote:

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and untill it is proven wrong, I will continue have my beliefs as a True Christian and creationist.

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and apparently even after it’s proven wrong.

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[reply] LOL, when has creation been proven to be wrong?

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No one made such claim at this message board. Do you hear voices ? .all the time ??
I’m sorry. You seemed to have forgotten the topic that YOU brought up. Allow me to refresh your memory: you said I've seen the bible proven to be acurate time and time again
We were discussing the abundant errors in the Bible, not whether creation happened.

quote:

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When has Evolution been proved to be right?

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Answer: never.
Tired, already.

quote:

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If it was proved right, why does Dr. Hovind still have his $250,000 in his pocket?

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Uuuhhmmm.because he commits tax fraud on a yearly basis ??? I dunno. He seems to have no problem exploiting your sincere beliefs & faith. He probably steals it then lies on his tax return.

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He also invites to prove him wrong. Who gave you the right to obilish Creation? Where is your proof? If I'm sorry, mabye next time.

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No one is attempting to ‘obilish’ creation.
The point being discussed is: What is science ? and what is NOT science ?
And what will be presented in a public school science class - AS SCIENCE ?My interests are keeping religion out of science class. I could care less about your beliefs outside of public schools. They do not impact me in the least.
Why not discuss comparative religion in a social-studies or a literature class ?

quote:

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Book of Genius, eh? Written by the same genius that could create a universe, destroy the earth with a global flood but couldn't drive out the valley people because they had chariots of iron?
Judges, 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

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Makes me wonder what His reaction would be if the valley people had Buicks instead.

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[reply] Did you interperate this as though to say the Lord is weak? Are you assuming that the Lord attepmted to drive them out? After reading more of this chapter, I interperate it as though the Lord with with Judah while Judah was doing this.

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Yeah, I guess this is the same lord that brought plagues to Egypt, parted the Red Sea and stopped the Sun in the sky with Moses and Joshua.
With all this Omnipotence, why did He balk at some Neolithic Volvos ?
So how else should it be interpreted ? You’re the expert.

quote:

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You're set, buddy. Keep up the denial, it’s working for you.

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regards,

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jeff

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[reply] You are attacking me, and what I say.

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Well, I have challenged your baseless assertions, but I never recommended you expose your religious beliefs to the scrutiny of science and the ridicule of non-believers. I would hold my spiritual beliefs with higher regard than you. Why not keep your faith and your science separate ? You admitted your self that they don’t mesh.so why bother ?

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I still don't see proof.

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Nor shall you ever see ‘PROOF’. Nor shall you ever understand scienceapparently.

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And don't use the bible to try to prove the bible wrong. That will never work!!!

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You mean you find it unpleasant. But I don’t doubt it won’t work. You’ve already placed yourself beyond reason and logic. Must be why the Bible appeals to you so much.Kind regards,Jeff

quote:

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
You are confused as to what science is, and isn't.

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Repeating your misunderstanding and erronious opinions will not get you very far here, I'm afraid.

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I understand the meanings. Who gave you the right to change the meaning to more closely fit with your belief. Evolution is based on belief, it cannot be proven, and your tests only prove that "The planets were once spinning faster", "Something died", and you love the words "Millions of years" and my personal faveroite "POOF". The first two can be proven but are not evidence of evolution.

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The contents of this message have been deleted because not only have they already been posted at Message 2 of another thread, they are also only a cut-n-paste (without attribution) from another website: Things Creationists Hate.

--Percy

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[This message has been edited by Percipient, 02-14-2002]

[QUOTE][b]I understand the meanings. Who gave you the right to change the meaning to more closely fit with your belief.[/QUOTE][/b]We didn't change the meaning, we're trying to explain to you what the meaning of science is. How about the Scientific Method? [QUOTE][b]Evolution is based on belief, it cannot be proven, and your tests only prove that "The planets were once spinning faster", "Something died", and you love the words "Millions of years" and my personal faveroite "POOF".[/QUOTE][/b]More argument by repetition. You are not advancing your point by stating it over and over again without supporting evidence.

After reading all your counters and beliefs. I still draw the same conclusion. I will say that you definately need to start thinking for your selves, which is a gift that God gave you. I am certian that you are all going to come to a sudden realization. There are so many things that your belief cannot explain, and as you said "Can never explain" that makes your belief impossable for and Christian to beleve.God gave us all the gifts we need to persue a happy life including free will. If you read the bible you will see that God loves us all, Satan hates you, and Satan uses your free will to blind you, lie to you, and give you a false sence of hope. Stop by a Christian church and really listen. The pastor is talking to you. God is talking to you thourgh your pastor. If you have any doubts about Christianity, ask a Christian. If you ask someone whos been tricked by Satan, you will be lied to and tricked as well. Everything that happens, is happening, and has happened is ALL in the bible.When you are stuck with the question of unknown answers, ask your self.... Do I believe everything I see on TV? Everything I read? If the president of the US told me to give him my underpants, would I conform? From everything you've shown me, I can not believe that we came from a rock, or that we just "poof" became. I was created, so were you. God made time for you, now MAKE TIME FOR GOD!

If one creationist could make a full, perfect rebuttle to this overwhelming compilation of facts, I would immediately convert to Christianity. On the otherhadn, I wouldn't. If you were able to make a rebuttle to that, you would have fought half the battle. The next step is to present evidence PROVING THE BIBLE CORRECT. READ THROUGH IT ALL. OR COME BACK LATER. TRUST ME. ITLL END ALL DEBATE.Oh no. Im mistaken. All of this evidence was planted by satan, and we eternally damned evolutionists are his evil, loyal slaves, intent on destroying christianity and the word of god.damni just keep forgetting.

go to this site to find the informationhttp://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Friceinfo.rice.edu%2Farmadillo%2FSciacademy%2Friggins%2Fthings.htmcopy and paste into your browser.thanks a lot.And again.i would appreciate a debate worthy response form the creationists.

Hold on Christian1. Did you actually read all that stuff in a matter of minutes?wow!if you haven't do so.please don't go into sappy talks about faith and "god will lead the way to enlightenment". Don't divert to faith talk when you're threatened with science. Counter, or be laughed at.Thank you

I just can't stop talking. But here's a little "spirituality"i cooked up.>Before you go around beliving in a book by man, for man, consider this. The universe is comprised of 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 or more stars. EACH OF THESE STARS IS LIKELY TO HAVE A SOLAR SYSTEM, JUST LIKE OURS. There is like to be an infinite number of universes, as space (or maybe some sort of fourth dimension) can stretch forever. Each of these universes is likely to have its own natural laws that differ from ours. Each universe has billions or more stars like ours. Sounds kind of Star Treky, no? Well, we are a part of it. The news, the gossip, your friends, your family, everyone, is part of a cosmos so large that we are but a grain of sand on an infinite beach. Think of it for a while. It may take a few days to fathom. Maybe you should look at the sky one night. don't take the stars as little dots in the sky, but instead as worldlets just like yours and mine. EACH AND EVERYONE. Then take a trip to their star. Imagine looking into the sky and seeing our meak and lonely star.
When you finally begin to chip away at that shell of yours, you will begin to think beyond a book created by a few men on one planet in one solar sytem in one star cluster in one galaxy in one unviverse in one cosmos in one super-cosmos and so-forth. You will begin to see how insignificant everything you do and see is, and how the universe IS NOT CREATED FOR YOU. In fact, one philosopher said that to ask for a meaning to life is ridiculous. There is no answer. We're just here. Another scientist said that the universe and/or cosmos had no beginning. If there isn't a beginning, then there wasn't a creation, and therefore there wasn't a reason for creation.
Just think about it. you must think I'm a nutcase, but I'm not. When you finally begin to appreciate the magnificence of the universe, your world of religion will be stripped from you. Learn to accept that humans are not a boulder, but merely a grain, a grain of sand on an endless beach. This universe is far too queer to be explained by religion, science, or even man. Just live with it, and appreciate it.That was it. No more talking from me until i get a response.

Let me explain the fundamental difference between religion (creationism) and science (evolution). Creationism scrutinizes and oppresses scrutiny. Science scrutinizes AND promotes scrutiny. After all, science began and continues to exist through challenging traditional beliefs and current theories. Religion fails to produce anything of value, as it doesn't allow scrutiny. But then again, that's a sin.Religion has no scholars. It has caused countless wars. It continues to propagate tension and conflict.Its time for religion to get a facelift. People need to abandon traditional and far outdated beliefs.While science expands, religion contracts. There ain't room for the two of us.

"While science expands, religion contracts. There ain't room for the two of us."
--Who said religion is included? You obviously have simply no clue whatsoever what the debate is even focused on. Set your proiorities and base your priorities on something that is actually relevant to the converstion. As I already have shown people the hierarchy of Creationism/Faith/Creation Science, please don't try to bring the argument all the way down to such a level as you seem to be arguing.-----------------