Can science refute the "god hypothesis" beyond all reasonable doubt?

And beleif in constantly expanding and shrinking universe(aka eternal universe) requires what, if not faith? Or a universe that sprang out of the uncreated? How does it not require faith?Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

OK but without evidence, this alleged "natural process" requires faith. It's true that natural processes occur but for some of them we have no idea why they occur - like life, consciousness, intelligence, emergence of the universe, etc fundamental questions that need to be addressed before I embrace atheism. Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

There is a way to disprove god's hand in the workings of the universe. We'll have to prove that true randomness exists. I see two options for that - we either make an exact copy of our universe outside of it and see if it will go the same way as ours, or more realistically - we take something hard to predict. If we were able to analyse and simulate the exact movement of weather masses(even a relatively small portion of the environment), and then repeat the same exercise with the absolute same weather masses down to the last molecule of oxygen, and the two experiments produce the same result, this would mean true randomness does not exist. High complexity events that are seemingly impossible to predict would produce the same results. This would give us enough evidence to argue that hard determinism is true and that would probably mean there is creator(the whole universe is governed by a law, as opposed to chaos and randomness) and what we perceive as life is nowhere near being life, but a pre- orchestrated play. I believe some day people will be able to carry out such an experiment and that may change the way people think about life.Straggler, i don't mean to clutter your thread, i am merely suggesting a way to help disprove/prove god(god's hypothesis being the topic of your thread). It's obvious that throwing dice is not true randomness as your hand movement directs the outcomes. I do think such an experiment(with the weather) will remove god from the equation for a lot of us(if it proves randomness exists), but I will not further engage in randomness discussions in your thread to keep it strictly on topic.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

What if we are moving in the wrong direction? Are we all certain that we want to find out the whole truth about life and our existence? What if we don't like it, what if the whole universe is completely deterministic and we don't have free will and we don't control our lives? If the creator came to my door and asked me - "Do you want to know the whole truth about life?", I'd be wavering. Everything about our existence is so unreal, i often have to open the window to have a look outside and see if i am dreaming. When you know more than the average Joe, you start asking more uncomfortable questions. I sometimes think i am going crazy with all this QM stuff, i look at people and then i see them as energy particles packed into atoms, and these energy packets start talking to me. WTF is this? It's very unreal, life is unreal, it's a complete miracle in our everyday lives. An arrangement of energies that forms on its own and talks for 70 years and then dies away. But what the bleep do we know? (just don't go crazy about energy and gravity talking to you next time you converse with someone).
So how come atheists don't believe in miracles, but they believe that objective reality and life exist? How is life not a mind-blowing miracle and would we really want to know the whole truth? Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

...or both. Now i am reminded of Einstein, see sig.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

Well that could be the case, although i don't put much hope into it. The good thing about EvC is that discussions here touch all fileds of science - biology, chemistry, physcis, history, medicine, psychology, mathematics and most importantly IMO - imagination, creative thinking and rationale.
Now you talk about "natural processes" like the solar eclipse and the primitive men with their human bodies which carried hundreds of trillions of chemical reactions per second tens of thousand years ago. You are touching a painful spot in my mind, i can't seem to able to go around and avoid the "true randomness" issue to see if a solar eclipse is trully a natural process or a part of something grander, that we are not able to perceive. So here we go again:A natural process wil be a natural process(un-directed by a creator) if the whole universe could go into a different direction if we made an exact copy of it. Do you believe, given the exact same conditions down to the last elementary partcile, the universe would head in a different direction than the universe we are living in?If it does, then true randomness exists and hence natural processes would truly be nothing but natural processes. But if the universe goes the same way, it would mean those natural processes were quite inevitable, pre-determined and fixed(it'd be your guess by who or what).I believe this is the most fundamental question that needs to be discussed here on EvC so we can see if true randomness exists and what something labelled as "natural processes" would truly constitute. So what do the others think(this question is not easy to answer, I believe it will split the scientific community like nothing else)?Would an exact same copy of the universe(down to the last elimentary particle) head in a different direction than the original universe we live in?

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

The one thing i admit i admire most about christianity is the structure of churches and the grand feeling of peace and calm inside them. It does give you a very weird feeling of disconnection with the outside world and reality.
Sadly, I am unable to find anything even remotely related to reality, life and science in the ancient books. They say most religions started by their leaders taking psychedelic plants, psychedelic mushrooms, etc. I am very excited but afraid to try LSD or DMC, i met people who claim that LSD's reality is as real as our reality. I know i'll one day step across the line and push my mind to the limit and see what it's capable of. Here is what consultant psychiatrist, Ben Sessa has to say about LSD experience and reality:"I suppose the most simple and incredible fact about LSD is also the one that is hardest to believe: that what it reveals to you is not, as is popularly supposed, a hallucination, but an awe- inspiring glimpse of reality. Other drugs distort, but LSD gives you a reality far beyond words, or visual representation, or language.

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It is quite the reverse of seeing something that isn't there. LSD disables some chemical filter in the brain that, in order to keep the world manageable, limits the amount of reality you can experience with your senses. An LSD trip allows "reality" - and if you have never questioned what that is, you would after taking LSD - to flood in untrammelled. The result may be terrifying and it may be wonderful, but it will be more "real" than anything you experience in everyday life.

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LSD shows you that ordinary life is the hallucination. Or to put it another way, ordinary life is like listening to a record with fluff on the needle, and LSD removes the fluff."http://findarticles.com/...i_qn4159/is_20060115/ai_n16007181Here is what wikipedia says about LSD:Spiritual"LSD is considered an entheogen because it can catalyze intense spiritual experiences where users feel they have come into contact with a greater spiritual or cosmic order. Some users report insights into the way the mind works, and some experience long-lasting changes in their life perspective. Some users consider LSD a religious sacrament, or a powerful tool for access to the divine. Dr. Stanislav Grof has written that religious and mystical experiences observed during LSD sessions appear to be phenomenologically indistinguishable from similar descriptions in the sacred scriptures of the great religions of the world and the secret mystical texts of ancient civilizations."Lysergic acid diethylamide - WikipediaIMO, god is something close to a dj that plays with the energy fields in the quantum world that produce our sensation of reality(the so called mind of god). Even String Theory suggests the universe is composed of strings vibrating in strange harmony that produce elementary particles. So in that sense, I'll one day probably change the soundtrack with that of LSD.I see order and harmony throughout the universe, so if i had to summerise in one word what reality and life is it'd be - Music.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

I am with the atheists on faith, faith is just another product of the environment IMO. So is spirituality. But I don't see any reason to link the veracity of faith to whether the universe was created by a creator or by chance.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

Yup, very good point. I think atheists need to keep an open mind. But then they wouldn't be true atheists, would they?

What do you mean - that you could see it and that i wouldn't? Or that there is no objective reality? I don't think i follow your thoughts correctly. That speaks more of agnosticism than of atheism. I think you'll be surprised what a great number of atheists there are who hold a positive view that god does not exist. They are more than certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are no gods.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

So what are you saying - that i can see/feel your spiritual experience or a similar experience if i followed your path? I'd be interested to try that but how?

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

I tried weed when i was 22 but it didn't produce results. I'll try LSD one day but it will be just to see what my mind is capable of producing in terms of other realities.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

Cool, just spoke to a friend on yahoo messanger, it seems DMT is called in Bulgarian "Ayahusca". However i was warned against trying it, someone had tried it and said it could mess up your life forever.
He said he saw with his own eyes how his cat turned to a dog as the weed started to take effect. I asked how realistic was the visual from 1 to 10, 10 being our reality, he said 10. Then he said snakes started to fall down from the ceiling and he kept his eyes open during the whole time, he said he couldn't distinguish trip from reality. He said the nightmares haunted him for close to a year after the bad trip, he said absolutely don't do it, you'll need a psychitrist. It's still a painful experience for him to come back to his memories.DMT seems to be a religious drug, here is what wikipedia says:"McKenna writes of his DMT experiences with a decidedly less skeptical slant, often presuming that the drug's "intoxication" is indicative of realms of consciousness equally as valid as waking-life if not more so. In his writings and speeches, he recounts encounters with entities he sometimes describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves" among equally colorful phrases. McKenna believed DMT to be a tool that could be used to enhance communication and allow for communication with other-worldly entities. Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule."Has anyone from the users tried DMT before? There does seem to be more to the human mind than what is generally accepted.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

Let's first see if reality can be described at all. Let's see a theory of everything and scientists getting out of the mess of the many theories describing only particular fields of reality, then we'll talk about scientists becoming gods. Here is a joke on string theory(there are more jokes on every theoretical model that tries to unite QM and GR): Now if you are talking about the multitude of proposed hypothetical theories and models describing reality, you are right, you have to take them on faith. If a theory of everything ever comes up, it will be understandable in its basic form and scientists will not be gods. But every theoretical model that there is today, suggests reality is way stranger than anyone can imagine.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein

There are so many atheistically-induced misconceptions on EvC.
If you mean nothing physical or 3D exists outside the universe, i agree. But we can't possibly know if existence outside of the universe requires time, it can be timeless or eternal. "Existence" can have very different meaning to something that's not a subject to spacetime limitations. There is no proof that there is nothing out there in the uncreated. We may not notice it or understand its existence but there is NO proof there is nothing outside the universe(it's an atheistic myth twisted and served as objective evidence). For sure there is nothing physical or nothing similar to our existence out there in the uncreated but whoever lead you to believe there is evidence that there could be absolutely nothing out there, has just brain-washed you in a pseudo-scientific way. Maybe there really is nothing out there but we have no proof and no way to know.
Too bad Jesus hasn't told you that when you met him, as you claim.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind""I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion"-Albert Einstein