Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy

I believe that its likely because Belshazzar was ruling babylon single handedly, as a co-regent of his father.
there is acheological evidence (Nabonidus Chronicle) to support the fact that Nabonidus did not reside in Babylon but chose to give it to Belshazzar. It also explains why Nabonidus was not killed with Belshazzar when Babylon was destroyed by the Medes and Persians.

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An inscription shows that in his third year, prior to going out on a campaign that resulted in the conquest of Tema in Arabia, Nabonidus appointed Belshazzar to kingship in Babylon. The same text indicates that Nabonidus offended the people of his empire by concentrating worship on the moon-god and by failing to be in Babylon to celebrate the New Year’s festival. The document known as the Nabonidus Chronicle states that in the 7th, 9th, 10th, and 11th years of his reign Nabonidus was in the city of Tema, and in each case the statement is made: "The king did not come to Babylon [for the ceremonies of the month of Nisanu]; the (image of the) god Nebo did not come to Babylon, the (image of the) god Bel did not go out (of Esagila in procession), the fest[ival of the New Year was omitted]." (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 306)

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Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

What is causing you to reason along those lines?Are there any other prophecies that say the Messiah will have children?I have shown how the word 'seed' is not always used to mean physical offspring, so why do you say it means physical seed in this case?

Do you know who Nabonidus was? Have you checked to see how Nabonidus and Nebuchadnezzar are related?The Greek historian Herodotus describes a treaty negotiated between the Lydians and the Medes by one "Labynetus the Babylonian" as mediator. As you mention, this person is Nabonidus.
He also refers to Cyrus the Persian as fighting against the son of Labynetus and Nitocris.Nitocris was the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar so Nabonidus/Labynetus was Nebuchadnezzar's son-in-law. This means that Belshazzar was the Grandson of Nebuchadnezzar and is probably the reason for Nabonidus’ ascension to the Babylonian throne.Daniel refers to Nebuchadnezzar as the "father" of Belshazzar because in patriarchal societies, the head was the father of all the offspring. 'Isreal' was called the 'father' of the nation for example and Jesus is called 'Son of David'. So its not strange that Daniel, a jew, would call Nebuchadnezzar the father of Belshazzar. Besides that, Belshazzar was the king of the kingdom when Daniel was there and he would have been obliged to call him the 'king'.

There are a few ways of working it out using the bible as the reference..
Luke says that it was in the 15th year of Tiberius that John the baptizer began his work, Jesus being baptized by him 6 months later.

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Luke 3:1-3 "In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, ...God’s declaration came to John the son of Zechari′ah in the wilderness.3So he came into all the country around the Jordan, preaching baptism [in symbol] of repentance for forgiveness of sins

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Tiberius's rule began in the year 14AD so the 15th year of Tiberius was 29CE. This was the year that John the Baptizer began his work and when Jesus came to be baptized.The scriptures also say that Jesus was about 30 years old when he began preaching. So in 29CE, Jesus was 30 years of age.We know Jesus died at the time of the Passover, which began April 1, 33CE. (Matt. 26:17-30) Since Christ was about 30 years of age when commencing his work and his ministry was three and a half years long, he was 33 1/2 years old when he was killed.So if he was 33.5 yrs old in April of 33CE, then he must have been born in the month of c.October. (no one knows the exact day of the month because birthdays were not a jewish thing)

the jews of today do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, so of course they deny that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy as can be clearly seen in the source material you've used to base your conclusions.But who did apply Isaiahs words to Jesus? The jews of his day who became his disciples and saw the evidence that he really was the Messiah. Under the direction of holy spirit they came to understand that the prophecy applied to the Messiah.

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John 12:36 "...Jesus spoke these things and went off and hid from them. 37But although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him, 38so that the word of Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: (vs1)"... who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?"

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But Isaiah wasnt into creative journalism...he was a prophet who wrote under inspiration. 'Seed' was not a 'creative' writing method back then. It was simply a common term that everyone understood to mean decedents. As i said, Jesus was called 'son of david'. This implies that seed and decendency are the one in the same and it shows that a 'seed' does not have to come directly from ones loins. not at all. Under Gods direction the explanation was given through christs followers. He did this with Moses, he did it with the prophets, and he did it with Christ. God always has representatives on the earth who are given knowledge of spriritual things. And when jesus returned to heaven, those representatives became the christian Apostles. They teachings they imparted, including their explanation of Isaiahs prophecy, were revealed to them by holy spirit.

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John 14:15"If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU

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that holy spirit was poured out on the congregation at Pentecost

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Acts 2:1 "Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, 2and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. 3And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, 4and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.

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Do you really think that God knows less about who the prophecy of Isaiah is speaking about then the group who created the "Messiah Truth Project",who are they?

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Messiah Truth Project is a non-profit organization established to combat the deceptive missionary techniques of evangelical Christian denominations and the Messianic movements.

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Of course they will tell you that Isaiah does not refer to the Messiah because the Messiah has not come yet...they are still waiting for him. Do you really believe that they know better then God?You can be misled by them all you want, but the truth is that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy and all its parts were fulfilled by Jesus.

if thats the case, then how is it that Jesus said to some religious Jews who were inclined to murder him;

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John 8:44 "You are from your father the devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father"

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You will need to explain how it is that the devil is able to have decedents/seeds/children on the earth? How does the devil produce his children? Whom does he have sex with to do that and what human women ever had sex with the devil to produce his offspring?Otherwise you may have to consider the alternative... Isaiah is not referring to physical offspring but rather spiritual offspring.

Hi bluescat,do you know what line of reasoning they are using for the date of 4bce?Your link says:
Herod was brought back to Jerusalem by two legions, VI Ferrata (whose men had already fought in Gaul and the civil wars) and another legion, perhaps III Gallica (37 BCE). Antigonus was defeated and after he had besieged and captured Jerusalem, and had defeated the last opposition (more), Herod could start his reign as sole ruler of Judaea. He assumed the title of basileus, the highest possible title.If you agree that Herod became the sole ruler of Judaea in 37bce, you might be interested to know that the Jewish historian Josephus reports that Herod died 37 years after his appointment by Rome and 34 years after his capture of Jerusalem. If those years are counted in each case according to the regnal year (meaning after a full 12 months), his death could have been in 1BCE. thats right, Herod would have had to have died later for the account to be true. And there obviously is some debate over the timing of herods death among historians.the magi didnt visit a 'newborn' baby though...Jesus was a young child by the time they got there. this explains why Herod had calculated that all baby boys from 2 yrs of age and under should be killed.

John uses the term 'Father'. Are you saying that 'Father' has nothing to do with descendants or seeds.Are you also saying that Jesus didnt say those words, John made it up?? Im not convinced of your reasoning on this one at all.
If the devil isnt a living being, how can anyone be his 'follower'
The account in John is not a story telling account, he is relaying events during Jesus ministry...there is no metaphor in the context, no story being told. Its pure reporting.

exactly right, just as the scriptures show that the term 'seed' is not exclusive to offspring. The term has a variety of meanings in scripture. An example is in the case of Luke 8:11 "Now the illustration means this: The seed is the word of God" Here Jesus applies 'seed' to Gods word...it has nothing to do with offspring here.So why, in the instance of Isaiah 53, do you reject a figurative use of the word 'seed'? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

this is why i trust the bible more then i trust secular sources. The bible writers on the other hand, relayed facts under Gods direction and therefore I find no reason to doubt the bibles historical accuracy.

please quantify the statement with the reasoning behind it.

You havnt shown how the bible supports your position though.
and as I said, the source you use is an anti messiah site so of course they deny that it is a messianic prophecy.But there is evidence that Jews of the 1st century did believe Isaiah 53 was a messianic prophecy. In one rendering of Isaiah 52:13, the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel (1CE), as translated by J. F. Stenning, states: "Behold, my servant, the Anointed One (the Messiah), shall prosper."
Another one, the Babylonian Talmud (c.3 CE) says: "The Messiahwhat is his name?..." (Sanhedrin 98b)The disciples of Jesus, who were Jews themselves, also believed it to be a Messianic prophecy and applied it to Jesus.In Acts 8:28is the account about Philip teaching an Ethiopian man about the identity of the 'servant' of Isaiah 53 at Gods direction. If God believes that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy, then i think we can trust it it really is seeing he is the author. Im saying its a 'spiritual' offspring as opposed to 'physical' offspring, which is what you are trying to apply.Isaiah says that God "took delight in crushing him; he made him sick...set his soul as a guilt offering" How is it that he "will see his offspring, he will prolong his days"The servant was put to death according to Isaiah. So the fact that he is able to 'see his offspring' and 'live prolonged days' must be not in a physical sense but in a spiritual sense. And if you consider what happened to Jesus, it is easy to apply it to him.Shortly after gathering a small group of disciples, Jesus was put to death, but he was resurrected by God and given eternal life in Gods Kingdom. Today he is seeing his descendants in the form of the millions of Christian disciples who have put faith in him. Thats how one can have 'seed' or 'descendants' in a spiritual sense. Its as Paul said in Galatians 3:26
"29Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"
The 'seed' in this verse is not speaking of literal offspring, but spiritual offspring...those with faith in Jesus are considered Jesus spiritual offspring.

Again here is another figurative expression. Isaiah's words refer to the humiliation that Jesus experienced. When he exposed the religious leaders of his day as hypocrites, liars, and murderers; and they responded by reviling him and accusing him of being a lawbreaker, a blasphemer, a deceiver and a seditionist against Rome. Their false accusations painted a distorted picture of who Jesus was and what he stood for.Here was a perfect son of God being called a 'blasphemer'...a charge that deserved the death penalty by Jewish law. If you know the purpose of the messiah and what his death accomplished, then you will see how the 'arm of the lord' became evident when the prophecy was fulfilled.
Shortly before Jesus died he told his apostles:JOhn 16:33"I have said these things to YOU that by means of me YOU may have peace. In the world YOU are having tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world" John 14:30 "I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world (the devil) is coming. And he has no hold on me"By his integrity he completely defeated Satan the devil who attempted to get Jesus to be disloyal to God. This was Gods strong arm in action...the fact that Jesus stood firm against all that the devil threw at him, even in the reality of death. So Jesus was able to say he conquered the world.

Purpledawn used a jewish source of today to raise the point that the jews do not believe that Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy.What I was showing is that the Jews in the first century did view it as a messianic prophecy as can be seen by the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel.And the fact is that the Rabbis of later times did not view him as the messiah. The prophecy itself said that he 'would be despised and held of no account' by the jews.
To this day the still refuse to accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Those Jews who did believe in him did not remain in Judaism...they became Christians such as Saul of Tarsus. He was a Pharisee and a strict follower of Judaism who initially was fiercely opposed to the Christians. He became a christian and left Judaism behind.

I think Jaywill was making the point that if one wants to make a claim that contradicts scripture, then the claim can easily be dealt with.eg. Is the passage of Isaiah 53 a messianic prophecy?The NT writers confirm that it is and they apply it to Jesus by explaining how parts of the prophecy were fulfilled by himie 'and Jesus cured the sick and so fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says "he bore our sicknesses..."The question is answered by the Apostles and christian teachers. Yes it is a Messianic prophecy and this is how Jesus fulfilled the scriptures.