Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

the difference was their current standing with God. They were in his bad books. He had removed his protection from them, he allowed them to be taken into captivity so he wasnt supporting them any longer. They were spiritually dead in that he had removed himself from their midst. They were on their own. the prophets wrote about spiritual matters, and the physical condition of the people was the physical representation of their spiritual condition. This is why the wrote in the way they did.they used the physical conditions to explain the spiritual condition. For instance jerimiah warned of comming destruction as punishment because of their unfaithfullness.When they were spiritually healthy, the land was peacful, they had plenty of food and good things. But when they were spiritually dead, the land was desolate and the people would suffer.

quote:

---

the difference was their current standing with God. They were in his bad books. He had removed his protection from them, he allowed them to be taken into captivity so he wasnt supporting them any longer. They were spiritually dead in that he had removed himself from their midst. They were on their own.

---

God supposedly removed protection, but I don't see that he was any less in their midst than he was before. Once God forgives them or shows mercy then you would say that they are no longer spiritually dead, even though all the people may not have done anything different?

quote:

---

the prophets wrote about spiritual matters, and the physical condition of the people was the physical representation of their spiritual condition. This is why the wrote in the way they did.

​

they used the physical conditions to explain the spiritual condition. For instance jerimiah warned of comming destruction as punishment because of their unfaithfullness.

---

So the body and soul go hand in hand.

quote:

---

When they were spiritually healthy, the land was peacful, they had plenty of food and good things. But when they were spiritually dead, the land was desolate and the people would suffer.

---

From what I can tell, you're just putting a new name on good and bad behavior or faithful and unfaithful. It doesn't really have anything to do with the soul.So spiritual death really is a misnomer. It isn't related to the common use of the word die, dead, or death. It isn't related to physical life or death. It is just another way of saying unfaithful.I can agree that the OT speaks of the Israelites as being unfaithful to their religion/God and disobedient which reflects the persons behavior.Are they only considered spiritually dead when God gets fed up with them?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Purpledawn writes:They do if God is the author. They do if it can be demonstrated that from a collective understanding in scripture, there is both a temporal and spiritual death and it clearly can be. thus your contention that: is completely nonsensical and unscriptural, if I may borrow a phrase from you. Isolating words, concepts and doctrines in single words is not good exegesis and a misrepresentation of the nature and purpose of God, even in the Old Testament. The audience as you suggest would learn this from more than a single word, they would learn it from the "whole counsel of God". If I had only the Old testament and not the new, one could still deduce an after life, exsistence after life, eternal life, soul apart from body and Spirit, etc, etc, etc.I never said the audience doesnt need to understand what they are listening to i was simply indicating that it was not necessary for the them to understand COMPLETELY all the ramifications immediately only that it was necessary for them to understand presently that God did not and would not tolerate disobedience in any form, shape or fashion. I have already demonstrated with two examples that God can
have a secondary or dual meaning in a statement or a word, FOR HIS PURPOSES, and at the same time convey a immediate message to the hearer Will you deny that bsaed on the two examples I have presented that God can, A. Have secondary meanings to the hearer., ie Abraham and Satan and that , B. The hearer does not need to understand all of the ramifications presently to get the overall message.people of these days were fully aware of the concept of the afterlife, the soul apart from the body, the concept of spirits and the such like.Job 32:8 states, "THERE IS A SPIRIT IN MAN AND THE INSPIRATION OF THE ALMIGHTY GIVETH THEM UNDERSTANDING."Now I know this was spoken by a man , Jobs friend, but there is no reason to suggest that the speaker means only an ability different than animals. Further if we are created in the image of God and there is a spirit in man, the combination of these two concepts to the person of that day would have naturally lead one to believe, there was something seprate from the physical.Other verses further indicate a dual concept and I know you have seen these verses and given you estimation of them in this context but I dont see why one is wrong in assuming that the author of Job is not suggesting something different from the pysical aloneJob 31:5 "Into thy hands I commit my Spirit, thou hast redeemed me oh God of truth".Now, one could conclude that the writer meant this from a physical going out of exsistence sense, but does that really make any real sense if you read it in context. So the writer or speaker is saying, into thy hands I commit my non-exsistence, my dead lifeless corpse, that serves no further use or purpose? Keeping in mind that you also indicated that these people had no concept of ressurection either. So perhaps you could give an explanation of this statement.There is no valid reason to believe that Job or Christ should have only the physical in mind when making this statement. The combination of the collective uses of these words throughout the Old Testament would do them wrong to suggest otherwiseYour isolation of word usage does not confrom to reason, history or the entirity of Gods word, even if you are speaking only about the Old Testament. But since you have not denied that the New Testament is not the word of God we can therefore conclude that he made allitle clearer the menaings and definitions that were not always so clear in the past and that you CONTENTION that these are inventions of a later people, is unjustified and unwarrented.Let me ask one more question in this connection. I understand your OP and I understand your purpose, we will probably never agree on the content or usage. However, is there a reason fro making this distinction? Are you trying to imply that there is no afterlife for man, the soul which is essentially the mind just dies and we do not go on in any form? Is this your implication@ Or is there another I am not seeing besides the word usage? are you implying anything in your contentions?
EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Will you deny that bsaed on the two examples I have presented that God can, A. Have secondary meanings to the hearer., ie Abraham and Satan and that , B. The hearer does not need to understand all of the ramifications presently to get the overall message.

---

Sorry, but I don't know what examples you are talking about. Please provide the examples again or provide a link to the post containing the examples. It is common courtesy when a post is far removed from the reference and it helps readers to follow along. Thanks!Job is not one of the OT prophets or the Torah.

quote:

---

Let me ask one more question in this connection. I understand your OP and I understand your purpose, we will probably never agree on the content or usage. However, is there a reason fro making this distinction? Are you trying to imply that there is no afterlife for man, the soul which is essentially the mind just dies and we do not go on in any form? Is this your implication@ Or is there another I am not seeing besides the word usage? are you implying anything in your contentions?

---

We aren't discussing the afterlife. In the OP I stated: In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors. Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20 were examples given along with the Adam and Eve story. My point is that the later concept of spiritual death is not a valid argument for those verses. The text doesn't support it. I then asked that people show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text.So far what I've learned is that spiritual death has nothing to do with any meaning of the word death. Death is being used creatively. So it wouldn't apply to the examples I gave in Message 1. (See how I linked to that for the convenience of readers and responders?)I don't think I've seen anything yet to show that spiritual death dealt with later punishment in heaven. That one's a bit fuzzy still, I think.Spiritual death seems to be another way to say unfaithfulness, which has nothing to do with real death.Obviously it doesn't say spiritual death in the OT writings. There isn't even a word translated as spiritual in the OT writings. There is in the NT.I still think the ancient concept kept the body and soul together. As I said to kbertsche in Message 38: I did find some other articles dealing with Sheol as your quote described. But even in those articles the separation is only after death and the "shadow" remained there. There was no concept of individual resurrection or separation from God. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

if you look at the reasons why God removed his protection from them, it was always because they had turned aside from true worship. This is the message of the prophets over and over again. When they did not worhship him the way he directed, they were spiritually dead bacause God did not give them his spirit. Its not about him getting fed up with them. Its about them remaining faithful and worthy of recieving his spirit.If you are alive you have life, but if you loose your life, you become dead.
if you are spiritualy alive its because you have Gods holy spirit, but if you loose that spirit because he stops giving it to you, and you are spiritually dead.I dont know how much more simply I can put it then that. Having Gods spirit means being spiritually alive. the opposite is not having his spirit.

quote:

---

Its not about him getting fed up with them. Its about them remaining faithful and worthy of recieving his spirit.

​

If you are alive you have life, but if you loose your life, you become dead.
if you are spiritualy alive its because you have Gods holy spirit, but if you loose that spirit because he stops giving it to you, and you are spiritually dead.

---

Now you're coming up with another meaning for spirit. The Holy Spirit is different than the human spirit.The plain text of Ezekiel 37:9-12 just means God is bringing the Israelites back to the land out of exile.So let's look at the word spirit.There are several words that can be translated as spirit in the OT. See link for list. Ruwach is one of those words and is used 4 time in Ezekiel 37:9, but it is translated as wind or breath.I'm going to avoid a lot of cut and past of long definition by providing the links.Link for current meanings of the English word spirit.
Etymology of the English word spirit. The majority of the Bible translations, do not translate the occurrences of ruwach in Ezekiel 37:9 as spirit.In Judaism, the human spirit is not something that can be removed from a live person without causing actual physical death. The spirit is the breath.The Holy Spirit is something different though. It is not connected to the physical life of the person.What you are describing is a loss of God's Holy Spirit, not anything to do with the individual's spirit. Ezekiel 37:9 is not describing such a situation. I don't see that the OT presents the idea that every believer receives the Holy Spirit within them. That is a NT concept.They felt the Holy Spirit dwelled among them and would settle on a specific person for a reason such as the prophets, hence the vision, but it wasn't permanent. So it wasn't a permanent "indwelling" as in Christianity today.Ezekiel 37:9-12 speaks of Israel's return to their homeland. Did the Holy Spirit dwell with them again?I still feel that spiritual death is a catch phrase that is manipulated to fit the purpose of the user.You say it is the removal of the Holy Spirit.
Another says it refers to the second death.
Another definition says it is the alienation of the soul from God.So far we've learned that it has nothing to do with the common use of the word death and isn't a valid rebuttal to the examples given in Message 1.

you cant read every verse in the bible as 'plain text' for the reason that the Hebrew language is full of metaphors and figures of speech. English cannot always convey those hidden meanings. You need to know a bit about Hebrew. this is exactly what im saying. A persons own spirit, or their driving force, is not contingent on having Gods holy spirit. But when they do have it, they are 'spiritually alive'Ezekeil is most certainly describing such a situation.
Look at verse 4 of ez 37. "And he went on to say to me: Prophesy over these bones, and you must say to them, ‘O YOU dry bones, hear the word..."please dont tell me that you think Ezekiel was literally speaking to a pile of dead bones in a valley plane. Piles of dead bones dont hear anything, nor do they spring back to life.It was to the people he was sent to give the message, and he was refering to them as 'dead bones' because of their poor spiritual condition. Oviously they were living when Ezekiel gave them his message, but they were'nt living 'spiritually' according to God.You need to separate the persons physical spirit (breath/driving force) from the spirit of God. When Gods spirit is upon his people, they are spiritually alive by virtue of having his spirit/holy spirit with them. But if he removes his spirit from them, then they are still living, but are spiritually dead in his eyes because they do not live with his spirit. if you read the whole chapter, you should be able to work it out.
Here is ?Ez 37 from Vs 22 onward

quote:

---

Here I am taking the sons of Israel from among the nations to which they have gone, and I will collect them together from round about and bring them onto their soil.
22And I shall actually make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king is what all of them will come to have as king, and they will no longer continue to be two nations, nor will they be divided any longer into two kingdoms.
23And they will no longer defile themselves with their dungy idols and with their disgusting things and with all their transgressions; and I shall certainly save them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them, and they must become my people, and I myself shall become their God.
24‘And my servant David will be king over them, and one shepherd is what they will all come to have; and in my judicial decisions they will walk, and my statutes they will keep, and they will certainly carry them out.
25And they will actually dwell upon the land that I gave to my servant, to Jacob, in which YOUR forefathers dwelt, and they will actually dwell upon it, they and their sons and their sons’ sons to time indefinite, and David my servant will be their chieftain to time indefinite.
26‘And I will conclude with them a covenant of peace; an indefinitely lasting covenant is what there will come to be with them. And I will place them and multiply them and place my sanctuary in the midst of them to time indefinite.
27And my tabernacle will actually prove to be over them, and I shall certainly become their God, and they themselves will become my people.

---

it had an initial fulfillement on the nation of isreal back then, but it has a greater fulfillment in the christian congregation in modern times. Through Jesus, God has made 1 nation out of all the nations on earth to worship him. it has nothing to do with physical death. It has everything to do with your OP about 'spiritual death' and 'spiritual life'

quote:

---

you cant read every verse in the bible as 'plain text' for the reason that the Hebrew language is full of metaphors and figures of speech. English cannot always convey those hidden meanings. You need to know a bit about Hebrew.

---

Sure we can. Plain text takes into account metaphors and figures of speech. I'm not looking for the sod or hidden meaning. I'm looking at p'shat.

quote:

---

this is exactly what im saying. A persons own spirit, or their driving force, is not contingent on having Gods holy spirit. But when they do have it, they are 'spiritually alive'

---

From the ancient Jewish perspective, the Holy spirit is not a permanent resident in an individual. So from your usage the people are normally in a state of "spiritual death".

quote:

---

You need to separate the persons physical spirit (breath/driving force) from the spirit of God. When Gods spirit is upon his people, they are spiritually alive by virtue of having his spirit/holy spirit with them. But if he removes his spirit from them, then they are still living, but are spiritually dead in his eyes because they do not live with his spirit.

---

I'm not the one mushing them together. The definitions I've shown you are not mine.I said several times that Ezekiel 37:9 is saying that God is reuniting and rebuilding Israel. The wording is all creative. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned. There seems to be a difference between God's breath that gives actual life and the Holy Spirit that hangs around and settles on people now and again.I feel you putting more into the text than is there. Yes the people in exile feel bad and feel they'll never see their homeland, but as I've shown the Holy Spirit isn't considered a resident within each individual at that time or before the exile. The Holy Spirit settled on specific people for special tasks.So the idea that "spiritual death" deals with having or not having the Holy Spirit doesn't fit with the thoughts of the time since the Holy Spirit wasn't a permanent resident within each individual. Show me that before the exile the Jews thought the Holy Spirit was a resident within each individual, not just in their midst.

quote:

---

Ezekiel 37:26
And I will place them and multiply them and place my sanctuary in the midst of them to time indefinite.

---

Apparently not.

quote:

---

it has nothing to do with physical death. It has everything to do with your OP about 'spiritual death' and 'spiritual life'

---

The verses in the OP deal with real physical death.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

OK so in the term spiritual death, death creatively means separation and not extinction. As an adjective of death does spiritual refer to the soul or to religious values?

---

I don't like the word "creatively." I would simply say: "death in the Bible means separation and not extinction." As I quoted earlier:

quote:

---

I agree that the verse actually speaks of alienating God's affections. It was a recurring theme for the Israelites. When all was well, God was happy and they were under God's protection. When things went bad, God was displeased and they weren't under his protection. I seriously doubt the every individual was corrupt or alienated God. People were supposedly still praying but God wasn't listening.

---

Good point. Is 59:2 seems to be speaking of the nation as a collective; they are collectively separated from God (spiritually dead). But this does not necessarily mean that every individual in the nation is spiritually dead.

quote:

---

There isn't anything that speaks of the soul as opposed to the whole person. God was still watching over the Israelites even though he was annoyed with them.

---

Yes. As you have claimed, "soul" is essentially identical to "whole person" in the OT. I don't see that this causes a problem for the concept of spiritual death; the people have become separated from God (spiritually dead) because of their sins.

quote:

---

As I showed in the OP, the uses for spiritual death have been used to create a dual meaning in conflicting verses concerning physical death. See this article http://www.thesecondchanceministries.org/Three Deaths

---

The view that there are three different kinds of death mentioned in the Bible is a fairly standard, orthodox Christian understanding, so far as I know. Here are some quotes from The Death of Death | Bible.org:

quote:

---

Death just isn't what it used to be. I think spiritual death is another catch phrase that really doesn't mean anything, but can be molded to fit many situations.

---

I would agree that "death" in modern culture doesn't mean what it did to the New Testament writers. But I believe the standard Christian understanding (summarized above) is essentially that of the NT. I agree with you that the OT understanding was not as well developed, but I don't see any evidence that the OT understanding is fundamentally inconsistent with the NT.

no its not permanent, its something that God gives to those who obey him. Not everyone has Gods spirit so yes, many, people are spiritually dead. This means they are not in tune with God, they are not obeying his voice, they do not apply his laws and principles in their lives. He does not given them his spirit so therefore, they are 'spiritually' dead. Remember i'm not speaking about a persons own life or spirit here....im talking about Gods Spirit. I take it from this that you are not reading Ezekiel in its entirety. Its important to do so because the chapters that are in our bibles were put there, not by Ezekiel, but by translators so we could locate certain passages

quote:

---

Ezekiel 36:26And I will give YOU a new heart, and a new spirit I shall put inside YOU, and I will take away the heart of stone from YOUR flesh and give YOU a heart of flesh. 27And MY spirit I shall put inside YOU, and I will act so that in my regulations YOU will walk, and my judicial decisions YOU will keep and actually carry out. 28And YOU will certainly dwell in the land that I gave to YOUR forefathers, and YOU must become my people and I myself shall become YOUR God.

---

God does give his spirit to his people and he can also take it away. If he takes it away, then they become spiritually dead...like 'dead bones' as ezekiel put it. But as this scritpure shows, having his spirit is linked with obeying him and being in unison with God. I dont think i understand your question. Did the jews view holy spirit as something they all had regardless, or as something they were given? I would say they viewed it as something given to them as individuals, and to the group as a whole. There are many examples where this is clearly their belief.in the acccount about Joseph explaining Pharohs dreams and doing so with the holp of Gods spirit. (i use holy spirit and spirit interchangably because they are the same thing)

quote:

---

Genesis 41:37 "Well, the thing proved to be good in the eyes of Pharaoh and of all his servants. 38So Pharaoh said to his servants: Can another man be found like this one in whom the spirit of God is?

---

The egyption viewed Gods spirit as being with/residing in Joseph.Also Job 32:8 says that understanding comes from having Gods spirit
8Surely it is the spirit in mortal men
And the breath [spirit] of the Almighty [that] gives them understanding. here we are told that God gives us understanding by his spirit...by giving them his spirit.Isaiah says that the spirit of God was upon him to tell the good news in Isaiah 61:1Speaking about how the Isrealites were protected by Gods spirit Nehemiah 9:20says :"And your good spirit you gave to make them prudent, and your manna you did not hold back from their mouth, and water you gave them for their thirst. 21And for forty years you provided them with food in the wilderness. They lacked nothing..."Also the account in Genesis about Rebecca who became pregnant in her old age with the help of holy spirit...her son Issac was said to be born in the 'manner of spirit' because God gave her holy spirit in her old age and she gave birth to Issac.There are many accounts about people being given Gods holy spirit so its safe to say that the jetws did believe tha God gave certain individuals his spirit for different purposes. However the verse in Nehemiah shows that the whole nation was given Holy spirit to protect them in the wilderness. So the holy spirit can be used for special purpposes on an individual, or it can be used upon a whole group of people at one time. but you state that 'spiritual death' is not an OT teaching...why would you use scriptures that talk about physical death if you wanted to discuss spiritual death?That ezekiel verse "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" is definitey speaking of physical death becaus 'Soul' in hebrew is the living person.Were you attempting to use this scripture to prove the idea that spiritual death' is not an OT teaching?? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

quote:

---

I don't like the word "creatively." I would simply say: "death in the Bible means separation and not extinction." As I quoted earlier:

​

NET study note for Gen 2:17 writes:

​

Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God.

---

Unfortunately when you say that death means separation, that is how it is being used; creatively. The word death when referring to living creatures means a permanent cessation of all vital functions or when referring to the non-living the passing or destruction of something inanimate. Death, dead, or die do not carry the definition of separation currently or in the OT; but the word can be used creatively to convey other meanings.The excerpt from the NET study note is a creative religious view of death. As the NET study note said before the separation quote. My NIV study note says: Despite the serpent's denial, disobeying God ultimately results in death.The OT writers had words that reflected alienation and separation as you have shown, so why the need to turn the words used for death to mean a spiritual death and not a physical death that the words do mean?Associating spiritual death with the Hebrew words translated as death in the OT is a later practice.Gen 2:17 does not refer to spiritual. It simply means die or to be killed, the standard definition.

quote:

---

Yes. As you have claimed, "soul" is essentially identical to "whole person" in the OT. I don't see that this causes a problem for the concept of spiritual death; the people have become separated from God (spiritually dead) because of their sins.

---

It's not a problem, until one wants to force it on verses like Gen 2:17, Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20 to warp the meaning of death and change the simple meaning of the passage.

quote:

---

The view that there are three different kinds of death mentioned in the Bible is a fairly standard, orthodox Christian understanding, so far as I know. Here are some quotes from The Death of Death | Bible.org:

---

I agree that some Churches present three types of death. Notice the article uses the Adam and Eve story as an example of spiritual death, not Isaiah. I still disagree that the Adam and Eve story speaks of spiritual death. This is a creation of the later Christian Theology and not reflected in the A&E story by the word die. Notice the natural man is considered spiritually dead with no regard to his behavior. The Israelites in the Isaiah passage were still praying to God. God just wasn't listening. So it wasn't that they weren't seeking God. What this author is presenting is not supported in the OT. The actual meaning of death is pretty consistent from the OT to now. I was attempting humor. Spiritual death on the other hand isn't very consistent in it's meaning. Christianity molds it to suit the purpose, but it is a later construct if not a Christian one.The word translated as death in the OT does not carry a meaning of spiritual death from what I have seen so far.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

i just thought i'd highlight these verses that speak of the spiritually dead. The christians including Jesus beleived in spiritual death. Jesus was not influenced by Greek philosophy but knew the torah like the back of his hand . these scriptures are in line with what you are saying about the hebrew word meaning death. To die physically is one thing, but the spiritual death has nothing to do with the persons physical death. They are not the same thing...alienation and rejection by God is what makes one spiritually dead. This is in harmony with Ezekiel who spoke of Isreal as a pile of dead bones.Ephesians 2:1 "Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins"

​

Matthew 8:22 "Jesus said to him: Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead."

​

Colossians 2:13 "Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses"

​

1Timothy 5:6But the one that goes in for sensual gratification is dead though she is living.

​

1Peter 4:6"In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God"

quote:

---

no its not permanent, its something that God gives to those who obey him. Not everyone has Gods spirit so yes, many, people are spiritually dead. This means they are not in tune with God, they are not obeying his voice, they do not apply his laws and principles in their lives. He does not given them his spirit so therefore, they are 'spiritually' dead. Remember i'm not speaking about a persons own life or spirit here....im talking about Gods Spirit.

---

I think I mentioned that the Holy Spirit and man's spirit are different. Even to those who obey, the Holy Spirit in OT writings was not a permanent resident with the person. That is a later concept.

quote:

---

God does give his spirit to his people and he can also take it away. If he takes it away, then they become spiritually dead...like 'dead bones' as ezekiel put it. But as this scritpure shows, having his spirit is linked with obeying him and being in unison with God.

---

The "you" is a corporate/plural "you". He will put his spirit in their midst, which is how it was before. Not necessarily within each individual. God is talking to the house of Israel.

quote:

---

There are many accounts about people being given Gods holy spirit so its safe to say that the jetws did believe tha God gave certain individuals his spirit for different purposes. However the verse in Nehemiah shows that the whole nation was given Holy spirit to protect them in the wilderness. So the holy spirit can be used for special purpposes on an individual, or it can be used upon a whole group of people at one time.

---

God bestowed the Holy Spirit on an individual or group for a specific purpose. It wasn't necessarily considered a permanent indwelling.As I said in Message 51: They felt the Holy Spirit dwelled among them and would settle on a specific person for a reason such as the prophets, hence the vision, but it wasn't permanent. So it wasn't a permanent "indwelling" as in Christianity today.Nehemiah isn't one of the prophets, but in 9:20 he is referring back to Exodus where God's spirit instructed people in various skills and abilities. Again it wasn't necessarily a permanent dwelling. They needed the skills to carry out what God commanded. It was only given to certain people, not automatically everyone and the story doesn't imply it was given due to belief or behavior.

quote:

---

but you state that 'spiritual death' is not an OT teaching...why would you use scriptures that talk about physical death if you wanted to discuss spiritual death?

​

That ezekiel verse "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" is definitey speaking of physical death becaus 'Soul' in hebrew is the living person.

​

Were you attempting to use this scripture to prove the idea that spiritual death' is not an OT teaching??

---

As I said: In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors.The common Christian meaning for this phrase is separation of the individual soul from God.
From you we have separation of the Holy Spirit from the individual.
EMA implied second death, but didn't really expound on that idea.Now the scriptures provided by you and kbertsche referred to events showing separation from God, but not through death. kbertsche also provided a Bible study note that stated death=separation. So death has been redefined at some point to mean separation from God. That is not in the OT that I can find. Separation is a by-product of death, not death itself. The Hebrews used the words for separation or alienation when speaking of such matters, not death. (Yes, I know there are creative uses also; but that doesn't redefine a word.)That's why we're looking at the simple text. I feel that all the verses mentioned in the OP speak of physical death, nothing more.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

He most certainly did. Trying to separate, the concepts of God, Spirit, sin and death and limit it to only physical qualities in connection with what the totality of scripture has to say in context is simply silly. Your refusal to acknowledge this point and provide to us what you consider Gods words, causes you to provide the above nonsensical statement Another problem I think you are experiencing in this regards, is that, you are trying to compare types of death with the DEFINITON of the word death. Ofcourse your only going to get a single definition from a word. Simply because the word "spiritual" is not mentioned, in the definition of the word death does not mean this is not what God has in mind. Pauls statement that "the wages of sin are death", could be understood in this manner as well, if not taken in context and without the entirity of Gods teaching. Yes, ofcourse the word DEATH is only going to be translated as cessation, but the only thing you can compare the word death with is life, not TYPES of death, that must be GLEENED from the context Even thought the word is translated as cessation, you are not warrented in assuming it only refers to physical death.Here is another example of word usage. take the word Sin as an example. Now it most certainly will have a specific meaning or definition but can be used in a dual sense."The wages of SIN sre death"
"The soul that SINS it will die'Now using common sense and context, do you think the writer means ONE sin, two sins, three sins or SIN OVERALL. The latter is no doubt what he means, now watch this, even thought the word sin can refer to a SINGLE act or a lifetime of sin. A perfect example of dual purpose of a word, that has only a specfic meaning or DEFINITION The same thing can be demonstrated for the word death, even thought it has a Specific definition. Are you starting to get the idea?The word evil or disobedience certainly have a specific meanings but does it have to only refer to a physical , earthly context?If I were at the hospital and said someone was brain dead, you would understand me to mean they were dead already, (and they are)for all intents and purposes, even thought the body was still functioning and ALIVE. So while describing a TYPE of death, I am actually saying they are dead alreadyYes ocfourse a word does not have DUAL meanings but it can have dual PURPOSE in its context, you call this creativity but it is actually context and subject matter of the author, in this case it it God. You are ASSUMING the usage and purpose from only THE readers perspective.here is an example, "they shall beat thier swords into plow sheers" Now while the words can only be translated as sword and shears, STRICTLY, they a DUAL purpose by the author, a time of peace by those that use to be enemies. No one understands this to mean, people actually doing the act of beating swords into shears, and even if they did, it has another purpose."The soul that sins, it will die". Yes ofcourse the word can be translated as stricly death, but God has dual purpose in the overall context, regardless of whether the reader understands it completley. Yes you are correct, the word spiritual has nothing to do with the word death, that is, when they are translated you are going to get different meanings of two different words. Also because you are comparing TYPES Of death with the word death itself, ofcourse you not going to see spiritual, when the word BY ITSELF, means only one thing. You can only COMPARE or TRANSLATE the word death and its definition to the word life. The context and overall content will determine what type of death and what type of life, is under considerationYour making a really simple thing very complicated. Attempting to intimate that spiritual death is not biblical from the word alone is both nonsensical and unscripturalEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

quote:

---

"The soul that sins, it will die". Yes ofcourse the word can be translated as stricly death, but God has dual purpose in the overall context, regardless of whether the reader understands it completley.

---

As I said in Message 43, I'm quite aware that a word can have several meanings depending on how they are used, but they don't usually have dual meanings within one usage in a sentence. As I said and you quoted: According to Ezekiel, only the person who sins will be punished. This is the point of the three sentences. There is only one meaning.The simple text cannot be interpreted to say that the soul that sins will die spiritually. You can't turn die into spiritual separation from God instead of real time accountability for sins. The destruction of Jerusalem was coming. There was a very real threat of physical death. The point was for them to repent before the destruction. Chapter 21+

quote:

---

Your making a really simple thing very complicated.

---

Right back at ya.

quote:

---

Attempting to intimate that spiritual death is not biblical from the word alone is both nonsensical and unscriptural

---

Well you would know about nonsensical. Show me that it is scriptural among the OT prophets and the writers of the Torah.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz