Buzsaw, I don't bloody care if the founding fathers were christians, satan worshipers, buddhists, muslims, or whatever else have you. We've grown beyond this bullshit as a nation.
Based on your logic, we should also reapply the institution of slavery, take away women's right to vote, and a myriad other evil things that YOU seem to endorse. Why? Because based on our standards the founding fathers were bigoted slave owners who saw women as mere properties.
This argument of founding fathers being white protestant men ergo we should be a white protestant male based nation is pure bullshit. I mean, do you have some kind of sexual fantasy for other white protestant men? If so, just say it and stop bringing this bullshit of an argument to the table.
he founders represented the majority of the nation's people who were likely at least 75-90 percent Protestand Christian at the time of the founding.
How is that relevant? The Bill of rights were written to stop the majority from stepping on minority. Funny how people who always talk about American freedoms forget the bill of rights unless of course they're misinterpreting the second amendment. yay
The founders did not establish a Christian nation perse. As substantiated by the inscriptions on the buildings and statue, etc in the government buildings and wording in the founding documents, Biblical principles were established but not Christianity perse.
considering Jefferson , Franklin and even Washington often denounced Christianity the argument will be hard to make .
freedom to practice religion anywhere, be it in school, government or private sector, uninhibited. This they did and this they practiced after the documents were established. Thus no fuss was raised about praying and Bible reading in schools or anything like that.
Yeah are free to worship anywhere... There is no problem with a child praying in school the problem arises when a teacher leads a prayer or tells a child things about they're religion are fact. You're employed by our secular government then those beliefs are not to impede on education of diverse children. That teacher may pray on their own time in school but not lead the class in such.
Whoever was in the majority in the school boards, in government, etc made the determination as to how much and what of anything, be it religious or whatever in the public sector.
except for the fact it's been deemed unconstitutional to do such.
thus, in our time, the majority supposedly representing us has spoken
indeed however our rights prevent them from stepping on minorities
America was founded upon biblical teachings and men.
Have you ever read what the Founding Fathers had to say about the Bible?
Sheesh, have you ever read the Bible? Let me remind you of some of the more awkward passages.
1 Peter 2 13-18:
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right [...] Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
Romans 13 1-6:
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [...] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
Note the complete absence from both these passages of the words "apart from King George the Third, obviously he doesn't count".
The United States of America was founded in flat flagrant contradiction of principles clearly set forth in the Bible. If you think that the Bible is right, then it's time for you to repent your sinful ways and acknowledge Queen Elizabeth the Second as your rightful monarch.
But sadly, America is no longer a Christian nation. but a nation.
I love America. If you'd prefer a theocracy, move to Iran. You can help them stone homosexuals to death, you'll have fun.
President Lincoln once said, referring to another man at a function in the White House something like; "I don't like that man. I guess I'll need to get to know him better."
Perhaps, Doc, we're getting to know one another better. You're looking more adequate to me after our freeforall exchanges.
Dr Adequate writes:
.........if a school board can tell you when to pray and who to pray to and what to pray for, then you do not have freedom of religion. Maybe they do, but you don't.
But Doc, have you forgotten that we have a republic wherein each of us has a vote which we can cast so as to remove/install the sort of governmant representatives who will implement the wishes of the majority of us? This applies also to the Texas school boards and all levels of government. This applied to the founders, some of whom were deists. This is what their majority constituents wanted and that's what they implememted. Don't you think the majority should determine policy, or do you think a few should dictate policy to the majority as was the case in socialistic Europe, Cuba, China etc last century when a few minority despots dictating policy murdered over a hundred million of the majority opposition in their own nations?
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
Perhaps, Doc, we're getting to know one another better. You're looking more adequate to me after our freeforall exchanges.
Much though I may deride your opinions and arguments, I don't think that I've ever disliked you personally. I just think you're wrong about a whole lot of stuff.
But Doc, have you forgotten that we have a republic wherein each of us has a vote which we can cast so as to remove/install the sort of governmant representatives who will implement the wishes of the majority of us?
I haven't forgotten that. But I also remember that we are a republic with a constitution.
I'm somewhat surprised that you take the attitude that you do, because you yourself belong to a minority religious group. You're a Seventh Day Adventist, aren't you? Very well then, suppose that the people in your district voted for a law that only Sunday could be kept as the Sabbath. Wouldn't you and I then join our voices in pointing to the First Amendment and talking about freedom of religion? Would you, under those circumstances, be talking so loud about how we're a republic with "representatives who will implement the wishes of the majority".
No, in that case you'd agree with me in saying that freedom of conscience must always be defended. Except that I would always say that it must always be defended, whereas you apparently get to pick and choose.
That article has a picture titled "Original Image: “‘Declaration of Independence,” by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library"
Can someone say photoshop? Can someone say phaque? Can someone say HOAX?
I read that as them saying that the original picture that this altered one was based on is “‘Declaration of Independence,” by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library"... Not that what you are seeing is the original picture.
Whether the Founding Fathers were Christian or not is irrelevant. The Fathers are not America. They wrote the documents that form the cornerstone of our legal system, they were responsible for the nations existence, etc., but the personal opinions of each of them are completely irrelevant as to whether or not the US is a "Christian Nation."
Christians make up the majority of the population of the United States, and always have. Being a Representative Constitutional Republic, this means that various Christian values have had an influence on the character of our laws and our culture.
However, to paraphrase the current President's inauguration speech, America is a nation of Christians and Jews, of Muslims and Hindus, of believers of every faith and of nonbelievers.
The fact is, despite the personal opinions of our leaders and representatives, we are a Constitutional Republic. Our Constitution includes the following words:
quote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Whatever else the Founding Fathers were, they certainly understood one simple thing: the only way to guarantee that every citizen is free to worship (or not) according only to the dictates of his own conscience is to exclude government from religion altogether.
Some people misinterpret this Amendment. Some believe that "freedom of religion" means that you're free to worship Jesus however you'd like. Some fear it, and think that it means that the government can restrict public religious displays.
Both of these are wrong. Only government needs to stay out of the business of religion. That means that official government channels can neither advocate nor denigrate any faith or faith in general.
Public schools run by government money cannot in any way endorse religion. This means that teachers are prohibited from leading the classroom in prayer; the reasoning for this should be readily apparent: a Jewish parent will not appreciate her child being led in a Muslim prayer by their teacher at school. A Christian parent would not appreciate her child being led in a Hindu prayer. A Baptist parent would not appreciate their child being led in the Hail Mary by a Catholic teacher. An Atheist parent would, obviously, like none of these, any more than the religious parents would appreciate their child being told that God does not exist in school.
But this absolutely does not mean that prayer cannot happen on school grounds! A commonly quoted sentence carries significant truth: "Kids will always pray in school so long as there are pop quizzes." Contrary to what some believe, the abolition of school prayer does not abolish prayer in schools - it only restricts what the teacher, an authority working as a representative of the government (and this a representative of all of us, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, and everyone else), cannot influence the children in her care with her own religious beliefs. That is all.
As individuals, it's impossible to escape the beliefs of others. There is no "freedom from religion" in the sense that we will always come into contact with people of faiths different from out own. But our legal system is structured such that no faith (or the lack of it) is given preferential treatment. No specific belief system is given acknowledgment by our government, so that all of us retain the freedom to make that choice for ourselves.
It doesn't matter how many Americans are Catholic, Baptist, Adventist, Congregational, Reformed, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Mormon, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Wiccan, Atheist, Agnostic, Gnostic, Deist, Scientologist, or any other religion (or lack of religion). It doesn't matter how many of the Founding Fathers were any of these, either - and that's the point of the freedom of religion.
What matters is that the United States has been, since the moment it was founded, a nation of all religions and of none, and equally friendly and open to all. In America, you have the freedom to worship Yahweh, Jesus, the pope, Vishnu, Allah, Xenu, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Thor, or anything else you can think of or nothing at all without fear of persecution from the government. You will be able to raise your children in your beliefs without having the schools undermine your faith (or lack thereof). You will not be put in prison or unequally taxed or otherwise penalized regardless of what you choose to worship, or if you worship nothing at all.
In this way, the United States is a Christian Nation. It is also a Jewish Nation. A Muslim Nation. A Mormon Nation. An Atheist Nation.
After all, you can't possibly have the freedom of religion if you are not free to make that choice for yourself.
But Doc, have you forgotten that we have a republic wherein each of us has a vote which we can cast so as to remove/install the sort of governmant representatives who will implement the wishes of the majority of us? This applies also to the Texas school boards and all levels of government. This applied to the founders, some of whom were deists. This is what their majority constituents wanted and that's what they implememted
except in our country issues relating to human rights a barred from being voted on and left to courts. Sorry you lose try again.
quote:except in our country issues relating to human rights a barred from being voted on and left to courts.
Not in California...
The process is no different in California.
Rights enumerated by the COnstitution are not subject for a simple vote - you can't make a law that strips the freedom of speach from a group, for example.
However, the Constitution itself can always be changed. In California's case, the unfortunate truth is that the requirement to modify the Constitution and thereby alter the Constitutionally guaranteed rights is actually lower than the majority required to pass a budget in the state.
It's perhaps California's biggest underlying problem - popular vote, where 50%+1 in a popular vote can make anything the highest law in the land.
indeed mainly concerning marriage and few religious issues however unconstitutional cases like this need to be appealed to the Supreme court. If it were constitutional to do this we would still have segregated schools in the south. It's a disgrace to allow voting on such things