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Author
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Topic: Is Jesus God?
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 112 of 492 (549140)
03-04-2010 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Peg
03-03-2010 11:44 PM
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Re: Perfect sacrifice
He was encouraging christians to be humble like Christ. His words taught them that no one should think they are equal to God...even Christ 'gave no consideration' to such a notion, that he might or should be equal to God. Christians had to be like Jesus, their Lord, and also remain humble before their God. Come on Peg this is getting silly and ridiculous. Why would Paul need to instruct someone to be humble by telling them that they are not equal to God? Who wouldnt already know that in the first place. who would assume they were equal to God Why would an inspired writer, who would know that Christ was not equal to God need to tell everyone Christ was not equal to God to get them to understand humility. but now if Christ is equal to God as he indicates and he empties himself of that nature for a purpose, now that shows humility the passage only makes sense as I have described it. Christ who is and was in the form of God did not consider EQUALITY something to be grasp or held on to, but he emptied himself of that nature and took on the form of a servant. Now with a simple reading which one makes more sense Again, no one would ASSUME that christ was equal with God, unless he demonstrated those qualities, unless he was sinless, unless he recieved worship, unless we were told in no uncertain terms (Phi 2), unless God is sinless and jesus isdescribed as sinless. The parts of the puzzel fit together perfectly it would be interesting to line up 100 people have them read the passage and see what the simple interpretation would be considered by themselves Consider John 5:20. Now why would the writer word it such a way to confuse everyone and not use simple language that could demonstrate your point. Instead he says Christ is God and eternal. there seems to be no subterfuge or hidden language
Christ did do this by becoming an imitator of God. He represented God perfectly. Hebrews 1:3 says that he is the reflection of [God’s] glory, but of course, God is the source that relection. were this the only passage in scripture describing what Christ was, you may be correct and it would be believed, but it is not the only passage. the combinationof passages make it clear that Christ is indeed God come in the flesh. We have it by the story, we have it by implication and we have it by direct statements
I didnt avoid the question, i provided numerous scriptures where other imperfect people are called 'good' And I do not deny these passages at all, All you need to do now is provide passages that indicate, or state that any creature is SINLESS and then and only then can we say that they are GOOD THE SAME WAY GOD AND CHRIST ARE GOOD. I await your passages EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 11:44 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 6:18 AM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 117 of 492 (549214)
03-04-2010 11:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by hERICtic
03-03-2010 8:35 PM
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Re: Jesus still not god 
Phil 2 does not claim Jesus was equal to god. It states the opposite! Jesus, existed before mankind, was sent by god to convey a message. Even if Jesus was perfect, in any sense, it makes no difference. God can create anything he chooses. But the fact remains, nowhere does it states Jesus was perfect like god, only sinless and perfect in his mission.
sorry H, yes it does. Even the simplest of readings would make it very clear of its meaning. Its just like the following two verses 1 John 5 20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 Timothy 3:14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God[c] was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. EAM Edited by MEA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by hERICtic, posted 03-03-2010 8:35 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 124 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2010 6:39 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 121 of 492 (549251)
03-05-2010 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 118 by Peg
03-05-2010 5:27 AM
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In Jude Vs 14 we see the expression 'holy myriads' .... Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads" the holy myriads here are Angels....why are they called 'holy' if they are sinners? And why did some of these sinful angels get punished and expelled from Heaven, but not the myriads who still reside in heaven? Ah, you are making the same mistake the rich young ruler did when he assumed that holiness proceeds from ones own actions and not from God Again and with all due respect intended you are showingyour lack of biblical understanding, notice I did not say knowledge. You are assuming that the angels GOODNESS ITSELF is what is holding them in a position of holiness before God. It is Gods holiness and forgiveness, and Mercy that keeps them in position, not the angels actions themsef. Satan simply went to far If all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, it can be demonstrated that angles have freewill, that certain angels rebelled against God, in a crime that would require time deception and planning, not something that would happen over night, that ONLY GOD is good, he is the standard, then it is not unscriptural or illogical to assume angels have a plan of forgiveness. Iam certain that plan is Jesus Christ. Now watch Peg.
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, New Living Translation (2007) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, English Standard Version (2001) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, New American Standard Bible (1995) so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, International Standard Version (2008) And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall wherever they're residing. GOD'S WORD Translation (1995) so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will kneel King James Bible That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; American King James Version That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; American Standard Version that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, Bible in Basic English So that at the name of Jesus every knee may be bent, of those in heaven and those on earth and those in the underworld, Douay-Rheims Bible That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: Darby Bible Translation that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings, English Revised Version that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, Webster's Bible Translation That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth; Weymouth New Testament in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, World English Bible that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, Young's Literal Translation that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- Geneva Study Bible That at the name of Jesus {k} every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (k) All creatures will at length be subject to Christ. People's New Testament 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. That name, by the exaltation, has become the name of the King of kings. It is supreme. Hence, every knee in all the universe bows to its majesty. Under the earth. In the underworld, hades, the abode of the dead. Wesley's Notes 2:10 That every knee - That divine honour might be paid in every possible manner by every creature. Might bow - Either with love or trembling. Of those in heaven, earth, under the earth - That is, through the whole universe. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary 10. at the name-rather as Greek, "in the name." bow-rather, "bend," in token of worship. Referring to Isa 45:23; quoted also in Ro 14:11. To worship "in the name of Jesus," is to worship Jesus Himself (compare Php 2:11; Pr 18:10), or God in Christ (Joh 16:23; Eph 3:14). Compare "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (that is, whosoever shall call on the Lord in His revealed character) shall be saved" (Ro 10:13; 1Co 1:2); "all that call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (compare 2Ti 2:22); "call on the Lord"; Ac 7:59, "calling upon . and saying, Lord Jesus" (Ac 9:14, 21; 22:16). of things in heaven-angels. They worship Him not only as God, but as the ascended God-man, "Jesus" (Eph 1:21; Heb 1:6; 1Pe 3:22). in earth-men; among whom He tabernacled for a time. under the earth-the dead; among whom He was numbered once (Ro 14:9, 11; Eph 4:9, 10; Re 5:13). The demons and the lost may be included indirectly, as even they give homage, though one of fear, not love, to Jesus (Mr 3:11; Lu 8:31; Jas 2:19, see on [2385]Php 2:11). Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 2:5-11 The example of our Lord Jesus Christ is set before us. We must resemble him in his life, if we would have the benefit of his death. Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh 1:1, had not thought it a robbery to be equal with God, and to receive Divine worship from men. His human nature; herein he became like us in all things except sin. Thus low, of his own will, he stooped from the glory he had with the Father before the world was. Christ's two states, of humiliation and exaltation, are noticed. Christ not only took upon him the likeness and fashion, or form of a man, but of one in a low state; not appearing in splendour. His whole life was a life of poverty and suffering. But the lowest step was his dying the death of the cross, the death of a malefactor and a slave; exposed to public hatred and scorn. The exaltation was of Christ's human nature, in union with the Divine. At the name of Jesus, not the mere sound of the word, but the authority of Jesus, all should pay solemn homage. It is to the glory of God the Father, to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; for it is his will, that all men should honour the Son as they honour the Father, Joh 5:23. Here we see such motives to self-denying love as nothing else can supply. Do we thus love and obey the Son of God? Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "that at the name of Jesus ever knee will boe in heaven and earth" "all authority has been given him in HEAVEN AND EARTH" His redemptive act is comprhensive in nature, time, place and character It should be obvious from these facts that those angels that serve God have not committed crimes like that of Satan, that Satan refused to repent, that even right now, he could repent, but refuses to do so because his hatred is so strong For the God Jesus Christ
In the context of the scripture, the man was using Good as a title for Jesus. It was used as a title... Jesus felt that all titles belong to God because God is the one with whom the quality of goodness originates. So Jesus did not want to take any glory that only God should recieve. How could good ever mean sinless? Good is something we do, we practice it, we apply it. Its an action. If we do something right, we have done good. So there is no way that good means sinless. No Peg NOW TRY AND UNDERSTAND THIS, Good is something God does. Do you remember the passage that says that after we have DONE ALL THAT WE CAN DO WE ARE STILL LIKE DIRTY RAGS BEFORE THE LORD. It is God that makes our actions good. When the bible implies that certain people are good, it must be compared to God himself, in which we end up being still DIRTY RAGS, UNTIL HE WASHES OUR ROBES. Dont simply gain knowledge of scripture Peg UNDERSTAND IT
How could good ever mean sinless? Good is something we do, we practice it, we apply it. Its an action. If we do something right, we have done good. So there is no way that good means sinless. As you can see Peg Good can ONLY mean sinless and this is what Christ meant by his statement, ONLY GOD IS GOOD. There really no good (to inherit eternal life and that was the question asked)we can do. Try and remember the context of the question put to Christ, "What must I do to inherit eternal life" This is how Christ was responding to the question. it wasnt a question about DAILY ACTIONS
Well this is just circular reasoning. The sense in which Jesus was speaking of 'good' was in the sense that he was given the 'title' of good by the young ruler. You seem to think that he accepted that title when in fact he rebuked the man for suggesting it and reminded the young man that goodness is Gods quality...IOW Jesus was saying 'God is the source of the standard so you should only be calling God by that title' no Peg, it is Good in the context of the question asked by the querest. Only God is GOOD enough to grant eternal life, a man cannot earn it. This is what Christ was trying to get the man to understand. You cant do it own your own the man wanted to use his own standard of the list he gave to justify inheriting eternal life. Yes Christ WAS accepting the title because only God is good, only God is sinless, Christ was sinless. We are made perfect in Christ (God). he is both the JUST AND JUTIFIER FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN HIM The term GOOD used to designated mans simple day to day should be used to desrcibe other actions between humans. The question asked was, "What must I do to inherit eternal life" Christ is trying to get the amn to see that only God can GRANT GOODNESS OR SANTIFICATION, BECAUSE ONLY HE IS GOOD.
there is a distinction and i've said it over and over. Please get this point: the young ruler used it as a title for Jesus. the young ruler used it as a title for Jesus the young ruler... Its being called good as a title that Jesus objected to. He didnt object to being called 'a good teacher' because he was a good teacher...in fact he was called good several times without any objection. So you have to ask why he objected on this occasion to being called good. the only explaination is that this man used 'good' as a title which is also how the people would address their religious teachers. They would address them with titles and we know that Jesus objected strongly to these religious teachers being given titles. In this explanation you have avoided the context and the question put to jesus. christs response applies to the question asked, not whether he did not like the title or not He did not objected to being called good because he knew the querest did not understand the nature of his question and that the person was trying to use his own standard of GOOD his own actions as justification to inherit eternal life. He is trying to get the man to see, as does the rest of the NT, that it is God that saves not us, not our actions. Jesus was not saying that he was not God. Now watch this, if he, Christ is sinnless, he is the author and finisher of our faith, he IS COMPLETLEY GOOD and only God can save us, then it follows that Christ is that God.
because as i've shown you, numerous peole in the bible are called 'good' And as I have showed you to which you have paid no attention, except to say others are called good, that jesus in this instance is using the word Good in a different sense when applaied to God, if his is not it makes no sense to make that statement, If your reply is that God is the standard of Good and it is different than mans goodness, please explain what that STANDARD IS, how is it different. Again if God is only good and Christ is not, please give me an example of how Christ was not good. Was there any respect in which Christ was not good . If Christ is COPMPLETLEY good would not this make him God. i dont see how you can avoid that conclusion Please if you would like to, try and find a flaw in Gods system and my logic Ill get to the rest of your two posts later, busy right now EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 5:27 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 3:22 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 123 of 492 (549291)
03-05-2010 4:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
03-05-2010 3:22 PM
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Im sorry, i cannot agree with you here. You keep ignoring those scriptures where certain people were said to be 'good' people. All those mentioned were also sinners, so please stop going down this path. What you are doing is bending over backwards to try and make the verse "Only God is good" to prove that Jesus is God. Well its not working and its completely out of harmony with the scriptures. But i'm enjoying your tenacity! :wink: Let me try this once again, the scriptures say there are good people correct? It also says there "ARE NONE THAT ARE GOOD, NO NOT ONE". Now how to do we make these scriptures not contadict eachother. Well some (TRANSLATIONS) have it saying there are NONE THAT ARE RIGHTEOUSS, NO NOT ONE. cHRIST SAID THERE ARE NONE that there GOOD, except God. Now Peg, how can the word Good not be being used in a different sense that that which is applied to God. Righteouness can only mean sinlessness, if Christ was sinless, he was Good, if he alone is Good, he is God
what is the difference between using good as a title and using it as a description of a persons actions? Here is the answer: A person can DO good, but they cannot BE good. Only God can be good just as God is Love. We can Love, but we cannot BE love. Now you are starting to get it brother or sister, Yes I do consider as such even though you probably collectively are a cult. Alot of people have nutty beliefs. I knew this one fella that HE AND ONLY ONE OTHER PERSON WERE SAVED AND HE SAID HE WAS NOT SURE ABOUT THE OTHER GUY EITHER. Ha ha Now your starting to get it Peg. christ is only GOOD and he can be GOOD, he cannot just do good. This is why I keep asking you to give me an area where he is not good
Whatever things the father does, the son does in like manner. Jesus reflected Gods qualities which means he imitated Gods goodness...he didnt create it, therefore he cannot be God. God does not create anything, that is an anthropomorphic concept. Its a word to help our limited minds understand Gods "actions" God is everything, always and forever at the same time forever. By Christ or God all things consist, even love and goodness Im not ignoring your passages, I simply trying to get you to see that iin his humilty state or servant state he would be in some degree subserviant to the God his heavenly father as a HUMAN son. but these tiles dont exists prior to the incarnation, there is and was just God.
before we go any further down this 'sinful angels' argument, could you please provide some scriptural proof that the angels who reside with God in heaven are also sinners. I really need to see that from the bible because i just do not believe a word of it. One does not need a specific passage stating that angels sin, since when we have an example of one of the greatest ones ever created sinning against God. Conclusion angels have the passibility of exercising freewill to disobey God Further, if there are none righteouss no not one, then this would include any created being, since Christs authority and influence is both in heaven and earth If only God is good, it would follow that no one or anything else is, while they and we can do good things from a created being standpoint, we are not GOOD OVERALL. The conclusion is therefore irresistible, angels make mistakes with best of us
Also you would need to explain how a sinning Angel could be called holy as they are in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Jude 14. Also, how could they uphold and reflect Gods holiness if they are sinful? They couldnt do that because to sin means to fall from Gods perfect standards. IOW, if they sin, they can no longer by holy. If everybody that sinned was out of gods graces then none of us would be here now, including the angels there was no time in history that Gods creation was not under his mercy. The gentiles before christ, went by the law of the heart . Romans 2:14-16 The children of Israel beofre Christ, were under the Law. At Atonement or Onement, Christ rolled forward thier sins until the fulness of time When christ appeared. Since Satan is an example of Gods mercy and justice, (for a time even now) the angels no doubt have a plan in place that warrents Gods mercy due to mistakes as a result of freewill, My guess is that this plan is none other than Christ himself. THE ANGELS REFLECT HOLINESS ONLY BECAUSE GOD IS HOLY AND SANCTIFIES THEM THROUGH HIS WORD, ACTIONS AND GRACE, NOT DUE TO THIER ACTIONS OR OURS
John 5:19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. Peg take a close look at this verse and see if doesnt cry out one God EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by Peg, posted 03-05-2010 3:22 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 12:16 AM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 125 of 492 (549319)
03-05-2010 7:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 124 by hERICtic
03-05-2010 6:39 PM
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Re: Jesus still not god
eric writes: Thats the problem. Everything is not simple. You have to undestand the authors mindset, you have to factor in context, translational differences, the fact that many verses have been tampered with, etc. Phil 2 is a great example of how one could see it one way, yet another read it differently. Hopefully this will help. Its pretty complex wrong, it is simple until people start rearranging and adding words to fit a theology I read your article and right off the bat the author quotes the verses from trqanslations with additions to change the whole meaning. No reptuatble or reliable translation translates it "Grasped At", this changes the whole meaning of the passage, for the most part. the rest of the article is built on that misrepresentation here is one from the New Living Translation 3 Don’t be selfish; don’t try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves. 4 Don’t look out only for your own interests, but take an interest in others, too. 5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God,[a] he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[b]; he took the humble position of a slave[c] and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,[d] 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. It seems nearly no one agrees with your fumbling with the original EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2010 6:39 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 126 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2010 8:15 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 129 of 492 (549370)
03-06-2010 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Peg
03-06-2010 12:16 AM
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test one two three
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 12:16 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 130 of 492 (549373)
03-06-2010 1:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 126 by hERICtic
03-05-2010 8:15 PM
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scriptures have priorities
You used 1 Timothy to show Jesus is god. Using your translation, it most certainly does. Let me ask you this. Why didnt the church recognize this scripture until AFTER the fourth century? If really stated "god" as plainly as you gave it, it should have jumped right out for the trinitarians. But its NEVER mentioned. You seem to be under the mistaken conclusion that this is the only passage in scripture that equates God with Christ. If the verse says He or God, it is corroborated by Phil 2. Oh yeah thats right your still using that translation that is unrelieable and untrustworth,, changing and adding words to change whole ideas. Shame on you and those dishonest people.
You skipped over 1 John 5. Let me ask you this, "one true god" could it refer to Jesus? Could it also refer to god the way its read? Yes or no? Why would I skip a verse that corroborates my position. It refers to both because both are one and the same. IOW it can refer to either in the verse, but mostly it refers to Christ, that is the context
You seem to be quite upset at your belief that the translators "changed" the meaning of Phil. 2. Yet you are very quiet when I point out other mistranslations which destroy your notion of Jesus being god. Thank you for agreeing that yours is clearly a faulty translation (grasped at) that changes the whole context and meaning. However, if we have a superior passage to I timothy and 1 John that makes it clear that Jesus is equal with God, the the usage of God in those areas is justified, it does not change anything.
Why in heaven does Jesus still call the Father god? Why does Jesus NEVER say he is god? Jesus stated over and over the Father IS god. Why does he never call himself Father, only the son?Phil 2 is the most troublesome. Ill bet.
I admit this. It appears everything hinges upon "form". Lets look at how Paul used similiar words to describe Jesus. No everything hinges on the word equal
2 Cor 4:4-6 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. You still have not learned that one verse trumps another. Phil is a commentary on this verse. He is the image from a human sons standpoint. If we read further, in Phil and other verses we see his not only the image as a son, but is actually God
Ema, each one of these verses clearly lays out what Paul thought of Jesus. He is not god. You simply have not read with honesty all of what Paul had to say on the subject. read on friend read on EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 126 by hERICtic, posted 03-05-2010 8:15 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 133 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 7:45 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 131 of 492 (549376)
03-06-2010 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Peg
03-06-2010 12:16 AM
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the problem is that you are apply the same context to both You see the contradiction, but you dont realise that in one, Jesus was being address with the title of Good, whereas in the others, people are being spoken of as behaving in a good way. Its really that simple. The only thing I SEE is you avoiding an inevitable conclusion that throws you position in disarray. Jesus cannot be completely good and not good in some respect. I have now asked you to provide a circumstance where andhow he would not be good in any respect, you refuse to provide it because you know he is good in every respect. Only God is good, those are jesus' own words. Your title scenerio is a sidetrack to the main issue. Even if it were a point, the other conclusions would still follow. It does not matter that you refuse address the specific argument, but you will think about it in your mind and probably be honest with yourslelf at some point.
As this has gone on now for 3 pages, it would be good to end it here. The answer to 'God is good therefore because Jesus is good he must be God' is wrong for the reason stated above about the context. sorry Peg wont work. It is ture or false that ONLY God is good, that leaves everbody else out of that category, even angels. Since there is no respect that Christ is not, not good, Christ has to be God. No where is it stated that angels are sinless, as a matter of fact we have a case where legions of them did and do sin. the clearest indication is that they too sin, but not to the degree that Satan and his followers did. Uf you could present a passage that suggest that angels are sinless like that of Christ, your case would be made There are no reasons stated above that will deal with the force and logic of this conclusion, and you know it, but have no valid sollution to it. Even if he were objecting to titles,he made an emphatic statement of truth that is corroborated by the Apostle in his statement, that there are none that are good, no not one,except God and Christ ofcourse Your sidetrack about titles will not help you out of this very obvious problem
As this has gone on now for 3 pages, it would be good to end it here. The answer to 'God is good therefore because Jesus is good he must be God' is wrong for the reason stated above about the context And finally your CASUAL use of the word GOOD applied to Christ IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT,does not fully appreciate what is said of him AS GOOD, in other passages. It is clear from these others that he is sinless and perfect the same way God is described. Ill let you figure out the conclusion. This I bet is a good place to end that topic, as Ihave carried it toits logical conclusion, aspertains to scripture
Ok, so you dont have any scriptural evidence that the angels who still dwell in heaven actually sin. Glad we cleared that up because i was starting to think that i had missed something. I do agree with you though that the angels who exist in heaven have the possiblity of sinning. All creature that have free will can sin, absolutely. But i think we can be pretty sure that if any angel did/does sin, they are removed from the service of God and thrown into what the bible calls 'Tartarus' But I do. I haveJesus' own words and statement that ONLY GOD IS GOOD, that would leave out any creatd being. I have the Apostles words that there are none that are Good, no not one, except God and Christ ofcourse, this would include any created being. So if only God is good to the ultimate definition of Good and all others are not, AS PAUL STATES, WHO DOES THAT LEAVE PEG? Im thinkingChrist, who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Ill let you figure out that inevitable conclusion I have the scriptures that state that Satan sinned against God in such a way that could only be described as gradual, repetive misbehavior. His plotting and planning, jealousy and pride did not happen over night, conclusion God extended him mercy probably for longer than you and I could imagine Is it your contention to say that Satan one day was completely faithful and in love with God, then the next day or that same evening suddenlymdecided he wanted sit n Gods place. His pride was liftd up. God's explanation in scripture makes it clear that it was a process. It is more reasonable to assume that God operates in the same manner in the area of Mercy in one place as he does in others. I think the example of Satan is a good scriptural indicator as to the nature of sin inregards to angels and how his mercy is extended to
Adam and Eve certainly were not under his mercy. They were dealt the full force of the law without any chance of forgiveness. This is becaues they were willful sinners, unlike us who were born into this condition. His mercy has been upon every human born from Adam and Eve. Peg I dont know what you believe mercy is but Adam and Eve were certainly under Gods mercy. Of course they were punished but they were not thrown in to the lake of fire or made to die completely. The wages of sin are death (Romans 6:23) and they died physically and spiritually, BUT THEY WERE SPARED TH SECOND DEATH BECAUSE OF THE SECOND ADAM. If that not mercy then what is it Secondly Christs blood was retroactive to wipe out thier sins.
But i think we can be pretty sure that if any angel did/does sin, they are removed from the service of God and thrown into what the bible calls 'Tartarus' After all the information and scripture I have presented concerning this topic the best you can say is I THINK and WE CAN BE PRETTY BE PRETTY SURE, THAT THEY ARE REMOVED FROM THE SERVICE OF GOD, ETC. Would you care to formulate those phrases of assertion into an argument based on scripture. I like to see why YOU THINK and WE CAN BE PRETTY SURE EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 12:16 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 132 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:31 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 135 of 492 (549426)
03-07-2010 9:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
03-06-2010 6:31 PM
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Peg and eric I will try and get my responses to you out as quickly as I can today, I do not always have as much as I wish to respond as quickly as I wish. Thanks EMA
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:31 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 138 of 492 (549435)
03-07-2010 12:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
03-06-2010 6:31 PM
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God and Christ only perfect
of course he was good in every respect, he was perfect Hebrews 9:14. And i provided you the scriptural reason for his goodness John 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." Hebrews 1:3 "He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being" Lets be honest here, Jesus 'reflected' the glory of God including Gods goodness. But Jesus was not the source of that goodness... he simply reflected it by imitating his father. He saw the fathers goodness and he imitated it. The obvious and clear problem to this explanation is clear. Jesus made an emphatic statement that was eith true or false. Only God is good. this can only mean sinless and perfect as you have ascribed to Christ The title scenario nothwithstanding, a second principle is taught by jesus here. If others are good as God is good the statement makes no sense. secondly we have confirmation by the Apostle that there are none righteous (good)no not one. Now watch this Peg,if only God is good that would rule out anyone else, even angels, other wise the phrases is nonsense and contradictory. if however, Christ is sinless and perfect he can be none other than God, becuse we know angels are not good like god is good. We have no statements to the effect that angels are sinless Jesus cannot JUST IMULATE THE FATHERS GLORY and be perfect and sinless. Holiness ans Perfection come from sinlesness and perfection. Here is another point that we have not discussed yet. Did you ever notice that the scriptures NEVER represents Christ as worshipping God. its never said that he worshipped or wordhips God, only that he and the father are one, he can do nothing without the father, etc, NEVER WORSHIP Angels worship, men worship God, Christ did not worship God
you didnt use many scriptures to prove your point on this topic. You didnt explain why Jesus objected to being called good in the instance of the young ruler who addressed him as such. His statement was not an objection otherwise he could have simply said I am not God. He is putting it in the form of a question because he knows the person does not understand what he means by the word Good. He is actually saying, do you realize what you are calling me when you call me good, you are calling me God
Yet the scriptures list many other people who are called good. So other created beings are called good by God. show me the scriptures that show that Satan sinned before he mislead Adam and Eve. here it is in Gen chapter three. if his sin was not before Adam and Eve, what was he doing tooling around the earth, lying to the first humans. If he had not already sinned and been cast out, that means, his sin of pride and overthrow were after this sin of temptation of Adam and Eve, which would mean God forgivess some of thier sins, if before his expulsion, correct? This is a clear indication he had already commited the sin of Pride and overthrown and expelled
Ok, so show me scriptures which state that God forgives sinning Angels and how they sin. There is plenty of discussion in the bible as to how humans sin...also how Satan and his demons sin. Show me from scirpture where God has forgiven sinning angels. again a brick does not need to fall on one to know that satans sin of pride and overthrow did not happen over night. Are you prepared to suggest that he was faithful one evening and changed his mind the next. Secondly, Jesus said only God is good. No others are, which means that even angels are not completely good. Since not all angels commited a crime that went to far, this passage reinforces the belief and idea that angels are not perfect. If they are not perfect, as is God, but not all fell, there is OF COURSE a principle of forgiveness on thier behalf. it could not be otherwise I am prepared to listen to an explanation as to why my reasoning is not valid
So, we who are born into sin, without a choice, get thrown into the lake of fire, but Adam and Eve who were created perfect and without sin, became willful sinners were spared such a punishment. Hmmmm makes a lot of sense lol. Are they in heaven then? Were they rewarded for their bad behavior? Please show me scriptural evidence for your assertion. We are not born into sin and what assertion are you refering to here?
2Peter 2:4 "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into TartaErus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment" Jude 6 "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day" 1 Peter 3:19 "In this [state] also he (Jesus) went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noahs days" Luke 8:30-31 "Jesus asked him: What is your name? He said: Legion, because many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss" Revelation 20:1 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore Matthew 25:41 Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" Revelation 20:10 "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur...14 And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire" I think we can be pretty confident that the scriptural evidence is that the sinning angels including Satan have been judged, tried and convicted without mercy and forgivness. They are seen to be in a spiritual prison since the days of Noah when they 'forsook their proper dwelling place', and soon will be thrown into the abyss... a place to which they fear. They will also experience the '2nd death' which is complete and utter destruction in the symbolic lake of fire. All scriptual as you can see. these passages only state that Satan and his followers were expelled and punished they do not demonstrate or indicate that before this point Satan who was faithful to God and served God, suddenly without any reason changed his mind and rebelled against God. that would be completely silly. Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASON TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect, did not reach Satans degree of sin. Gods longsuffering and forgiveness is repleat in the scriptures, why would it be different in Heaven with freewill creatures? EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Peg, posted 03-06-2010 6:31 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 142 of 492 (549463)
03-08-2010 1:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:50 PM
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Re: God and Christ only perfect
This passage of scripture is 'prophetic'. Yes it is initially refering to the king of Tyre and the destruction of his kingdom, however it also prophetically refers to Satan....the Cherub. The king of tyre was never one of Gods cherubs. yes with one modification, it refers to a statement made to satan long before Tyre, but God applies it to the king because he fit the bill
Ezekiel 28:12 writes:
You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrysoElite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready.
14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about.
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you. Satan was just as perfect as every other angel that God had made. Satan was one of the highest stationed angels and he was faultless from the day of his creation UNTIL he became unrighteous. Sure satan was perfect, just like everyother creature God created until they sinned, even man It almost ironic that you have nearly demonstrated my point about every other creature besides God and Christ being sinless, by quoting and providing this verse. it demonstrates once again that only God (Christ) can be completely good forever and always, as the scripture says, "only God is Good" Again since only God is good and all angels did not fall, it IS MORE REASONABLE TO ASSUME, that all angels which ARE NOT perfect, HAVE SIN, because none are good, no not one and ONLY GOD IS GOOD
show me scriptural evidence that all the angels are NOT perfect. I have asked for scriptural evidence of your assertions and you've not provided any at all. The ezeikel verse i just posted shows that Satan was Perfect and faultless before he became unrighteous. So please show me scriptural proof to the contrary about all other angels. I have and you just keep ignoring it. as I predicted you would not attempt to touch the force of the argument I have made several times now. All you keep doing is providing verses where it is said Jesus was this or that to God. I have explained that a single verse designating a CHARACTERISTIC of God (God is Only completely good one, sinless, perfect) trumps other verses where it appears he is needy to God. they cant contradict eachother, so one has to have presedence. Now you have provided me with a verse that says angels sin, thank you. But if your implication is that the others dont, your still confronted with the passage that ONLY ALLOWS GOD TO BE PERFECTLY good and sinless, which means that they LOGICALLY CANNOT BE THESE THINGS TO THE ABSOLUTE, like God is if only one verse is all it takes to demonstrate that angels, all angels are not perfect, then its the only verse I need, correct? Lastly on the passage in Ezekiel you have damaged your positon by not quoting all it has to say. What you have left out God provides about Satans character, his overall character and how the events transpired. Lets read the entire passage together
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Look at verse 17 then eighteen. You dont corrupt your wisdom over night. Then he says "the multitude of thine iniquities" Im going to bet this went on for a long long time, due to gods mercy this is a passage about a single angel, its passage about the contiuance of his problems. EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 4:00 AM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 145 of 492 (549488)
03-08-2010 9:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
03-07-2010 6:50 PM
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Re: God and Christ only perfect
John 4:21 Jesus said to her: Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; WE worship what we know. Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’ 1Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus UNDER COMMAND OF GOD our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope. in all these verses, Jesus is seen to be in an inferior position to God. In the first he includes himself as those who worship 'what WE know'. In the 2nd he is said to have supplicated God. In the 3rd he confirms that God is his God. And in the 4th Paul says that Christ is under the command of God. None of them show him to be equal to God or to BE God. Ill keep beating this point home and I will accept your unwillingness to deal with it as an aquiesence on this issue. When we have a scripture or scriptures that make a character quality of Jesus superior to another those other passages have to BE UNDERSTOOD IN A CONTEXT THAT MAKES SENSE to those superior passages Here it is in illustration one more time for those that are paying attention. if we have two expressions, Son of God and Son of man and one of those passages demonstrates that jesus' birth was Unique (only begotten), then it is easy to see his Son of God status is superior to his existence as a human, although he was completely human as well. Jesus worshipped God from a Servant standpoint because he EMPTIED himself of his EQUALITY with God jesus did many things in accordance with the Law to FULFILL ALL RIGHTTOUSNESS. His baptism was an example of this action. While he had no sin and that was the reson for Johns baptism, he did it as an example of obedience. At other times he demonstrated his deity by making this statement, "the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath" While he observed the sabbath as a matter of respect to God, he is saying he is the one that instituted the sabbath in the first place Your quotes above should be understood in this connection unknown author Most importantly, Jesus taught that he is the Lord of the Sabbath. Look at verse 28. So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath. What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath? It means that Jesus made the Sabbath. It means that Jesus is the object of our worship. It means that Jesus gives us true rest. Let’s think about them one by one. First, It is Jesus who made the Sabbath. In Genesis 2, after creating all things for six days, God added one more day, called the Sabbath. Jesus is the very God who set the seventh day apart. That’s why he says, The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man. This is a messianic title rooted in Daniel 7:13-14, which say, In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. The Son of Man whom Daniel saw is God. Jesus says that he is the Son of Man. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He made the Sabbath for us. Author unknown Peg writes: you keep saying this, but you have yet to show a scripture that shows that all angels sin and recieve forgiveness. As the point you are making is not biblical, I do not accept it as truth. Gods word is truth and if what you were saying is true, then the evidence should be there. As it is not, i can only assume it is a man-made doctrine like many other man made doctrines that have no basis in scripture. I understand Peg it is not a easy thing to grasp if you have always be taught a certain thing in this connection. It is absolutely true that ONLY GOD IS GOOD, that doesnt leave anybody else. Fortunately my position is seated in the best possible exclamation of scripture, that only God is good and that there are none that are righteouss, no not ONE. These two scriptures drive home a point that is inexcapable
God does not contradict himself so nor should his word. Its time for you to marry up these verses so they do not contradict one another. You need to find a new explanation....one that does not contradict Jesus own words. Seeing that you have not addressed the argument with a single reason to the contrary, it follows that mine is not a contradiction. he is Lord of the sabbath, because he institued the sabbath We dont have to agree on this point, to be in fellowship, ITHINK. However, if a brother of sister reading this sees why i am in error on this concept of fellowship, I would encourage them to step forward and express thier opinion about fellowship in this matter. i wish Jaywill were still to get his opinion If it is ok with you I would like now to discuss the selected group of people that guide your church, that you believe have direct inspiration from God. I hope I did not misrepresent that issue EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by Peg, posted 03-07-2010 6:50 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 148 by Peg, posted 03-08-2010 6:38 PM | | Dawn Bertot has not replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 146 of 492 (549497)
03-08-2010 10:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 133 by hERICtic
03-06-2010 7:45 PM
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Re: scriptures have priorities
EMA wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken conclusion that this is the only passage in scripture that equates God with Christ. If the verse says He or God, it is corroborated by Phil 2. Oh yeah thats right your still using that translation that is unrelieable and untrustworth,, changing and adding words to change whole ideas. eric wrote: Wow. You just completely ignored the entire context. The way it is written (as per your translators) SCREAMS Jesus is god. Using your translation, its obvious Jesus is god, why wasnt it shown BEFORE the fourth century? Obvious answer: "God" is not written there. "He" is. If "he" refers back to Jesus, it changes the meaning completely. Sorry for the lateness on your responses Well I think you missed the point I was making. were this the only passage you may have a point, it is not and it does not matter whether you translate it He or God, both are correct, thats the point happily also we have the early Chruch father to refute the point that This was a fourth century invention. From the earliest of times they viewed Jesus as God and worshipped him as God.
JESUS CHRIST'S DIVINITY: Invented by Constantine? Evidence for the Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Early Church Fathers complied by Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D. The DaVinci Code repeats the old claim, by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Others, that no one believed in the Divinity of Jesus Christ in the early Church, but that this idea was invented and promulgated by the emperor Constantine who gained control of the Roman Empire in 312 AD. This historical claim in absolute nonsense. The following texts from Christian writers who lived between New Testament times and the reign of Constantine make abundantly clear that belief in Christ's divinity and equality with God the Father is an indisputable part of the Christian tradition from the beginning. These quotes demonstrating belief in Jesus' divine as well as human nature are by no means exhaustive — they are just a very limited selection. Most or all of the direct quotes below come from the collection edited by Cyril Richardson entitled Early Christian Fathers (NY: Macmillan, 1970), abbreviated here as ECF. I. Selected Ante-Nicene Patristic witnesses to Christ's Divinity A. Ignatius of Antioch, on the Divinity of Christ, calls Jesus God 16x in 7 letters (ca. 110 AD) 1. Jesus Christ our God Eph inscr, Eph 15:3, Eph 18:2, Tral 7, Ro inscr 2x, Ro 3:3, Smyr 10:1. 2. He speaks of Christ’s blood as God's blood Eph 1:1 3. He calls Jesus God incarnate Eph 7:2 4. In Jesus God was revealing himself as a man Eph 19:3 B. Epistle to Diognetus (ca. 125 AD) speaking of God the Father, he says: 1. Diognetus 7:2 "he sent the Designer and Maker of the universe himself, by whom he created the heavens and confined the sea within its own bounds" (ca. 125 AD) 2. Diognetus 7:4 He sent him as God; he sent him as man to men." C. Melito of Sardis on Christ's Divnity (d. ca. 190) On the Pasch (Peri Pascha). 1. Translation in Lucien Deiss, ed., Springtime of the Liturgy (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1979), 97-110. 2. Peri Pascha was only discovered in 1940 and published in 1960. 3. he says Christ "rises from the dead as God, being by nature both God and man" (p. 100 in Deiss, physei Theos n kai anthropos). 4. he also has an anti-Gnostic insistence on Christ's true humanity. D. Justin Martyr on the Divinity of Christ (c. 155 AD) 1. says that Christians adore and worship the Son as well as the Father. 1st Apology 6. 2. says Christ, the Word incarnate, is divine 1 Apol 10 & 63 E. Irenaeus on Christ's Divinity (ca. 185) in his work Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies) 1. Of Jesus he says "He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; --all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him." AH III.19.2 (Ante Nicene Fathers 1: 449). 2. "He, therefore who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared, 'No man knoweth the Father,' but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very [true] man, and that He was very [true] God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons, from the enemy, and last of all, from death itself." AH, IV, 6,7 (ANF, 469). F. Tertullian on the Divinity of Christ (ca. 200) 1. the first use of the Latin word trinitas with reference to God is in Adversus Praxean and De pudicitia. The first to use the term persona in a Trinitarian & christological context asserting in Adv. Praxean 12 that the Logos is distinct from the Father as person and that the HS is the "third person" in the Trinity." 2. Adv. Praxean 27 states that there are two natures, one human and one divine, which are joined in the one person Jesus Christ. 3. In his Apology 21, speaking of the Word, he says, we have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. . . . Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. . . . That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is make a second in manner of existence--in position, not in nature. . . .in His birth God and man united. 4. In On the Flesh of Christ 5, he asks, Was not God really crucified? G. Clement of Alexandria on Christ's Divinity (ca. 210 AD) 1. Exhortation to the Heathen, 1: This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) ad of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--that Author of all blessings to us. . . . This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. II. A few selected Trinitarian Texts from Ante-Nicene Fathers A. Didache (ca. 125 AD) "then baptize in running water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Early Christian Fathers, p. 7) B. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 115 AD) exhorts the Christians at Magnesia to stand firm "in faith and love, in Son, Father, and Spirit." (Mag 13) C. Pope Dionysius to Dionysius of Alexandria, 262 AD. Uses the term Trinity and describes the unity of the three persons to prove that they are not three gods. Neunier-Dupuis, The Christian Faith, #301-303. D. Origen (ca 230 AD), On First Principles 1.6.2 For in the Trinity alone, which is the author of all things, does goodness exist in virtue of essential being; while others possess it as an accidental and perishable quality, and only then enjoy blessedness, when they participate in holiness and wisdom, and in divinity itself. Whats the conclusion, they must have been reading the same scriptures we are today. your contention that it is an invention of the fourth century is unfounded
I did not agree with you. I simply pointed out that you base everything upon "translations". You dismiss anything which does not back up your point. You cannot provide ANY evidence "true god" refers back to Jesus. Nothing. Yet using other verses, I have shown "true god' each time refers back to god. As you can see i do not base everything on translations, on the contrary, translations are based on the original, the TOTALITY of scripture and a SOUND HISTORY OF WHAT THE CHURCH BELIEVED
No it does not. It states NOT equal. So when Paul states four times Jesus is basically just in the image of god...these verses do not count bc you hinge upon one verse which states "form". Which has the same meaning. So we ignore the other four? Then I can only believe you have some ofrm of dyslexia. He was in form, God as a human, as he was in form a SERVANT, as a human. God is not USUALLY a servant, but he took on the form of one. He did not think being on an EQUALITY a thing to be GRASPED, Eric, not grasped at, as your translation suggest. The early church supports this translation oand understanding "I have NOT COME TO BE SERVED, but to serve" And while yes, this article is written by a Catholic, he is not quoting Catholics, but the earliest of Christians EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by hERICtic, posted 03-06-2010 7:45 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 151 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 7:16 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 154 of 492 (549614)
03-09-2010 9:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by hERICtic
03-08-2010 7:16 PM
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Re: scriptures have priorities
I NEVER suggested even once that before the Creed others did not believe Jesus to be god. I said, the verse in question, screams that Jesus is god. But NO ONE, prior to the fourth century ever used said scripture to show Jesus was god. NO ONE. Sometimes when you read these responses you get a good belly laugh, such is the case here. Sure you never said that directly Eric the hertic, but your implication was to convey that the early Christians did not believe in Jesus as God. My implication from this passage was that it was such common knowledge and there were so many other passages that indicate what this does, that there was no need to use every scripture to demonstrate a well established BELIEF. To the early christians HE did mean God, that is the way the understood the passage, based on other passages, so when translating it, it could be either God or HE, same thing.
If it states "god", instead of "he", again I ask-why is it never mentioned by all the great writers. Heck, you just gave a list of authors who believed Jesus was god prior to the 4th century. Please show me which one refers to Phil 2. Another belly holder. eric before 1200 or so, I believe, there were no chapters or verses, just compilations of letters and writings, the writings and THIER CONTENTS were well KNOWN BY THE EARLIEST of Christians. When they refered to a doctrine, they seem to have quoted it verbatum or gave the gist of its context. Such is the case with John 1:1, Col, Phil 2, etc. One can see with the greatest of ease, they were using the same scriptures we are today, to establish the doctrine through inspiration. the verbage they use in thier letters ECHO without mistake what the Nt teaches on the fact that Jesus was believed to be God incarnate. its simply to easy to miss. Here is another item to drive the point home. the early Christians and some that directly followed John were DIRECTLY guided through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that is those that had had the Apotles hands laid on them to recieve the gifts of the Spirit. Why would so many early Christians, some of which knew John and were guided by the Holy Spirit directly, get such a simple truth wrong. the answer is that they did not, and it is easily seen in thier writings EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by hERICtic, posted 03-08-2010 7:16 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 160 by hERICtic, posted 03-09-2010 12:15 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: 11-23-2007
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Message 161 of 492 (549643)
03-09-2010 12:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 160 by hERICtic
03-09-2010 12:15 PM
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Re: scriptures have priorities
You have no evidence John was guided by anything. I was under the impression I was speaking with someone who believed the scriptures to be the direct revelation of God to the writers indicated. Is this not the case, you and I have been wasting our precious time. EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 160 by hERICtic, posted 03-09-2010 12:15 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 162 by hERICtic, posted 03-09-2010 1:57 PM | | Dawn Bertot has replied |
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