Is Jesus God?

Even without the wonderful exposition by Jaywill, it should be obviously clear that he is NOT saying he is not God, but that he is applying it in a way that they would understand.he could have very easliy stated in no uncertain terms, Iam not claiming to be God Almighty, he did not. Ill answer why in a momentAll of us regarded as gods in the sense of presexistence by angels and that fact that man was created in Gods imageIn this situation he was trying to disway them from the anger that was mounting, so he puts it in terms that could be easily understood. he however, never applies the word god to himselfNow, here is the main point and something you have forgotten during the course of this debate. Isolating a single passage and trying to form an idea or doctrine on it without CONTINUOSLY remembering, even when speaking about a SPECIFIC verse, that other verse have priority over the verses that have a certain amount of ambiguity.Even if this single passage does not make it CLEAR as to the nature of Christ, THE TOTALITY of scripture will clear up any misunderstanding. Notice jesus never used the word "god" when refering to himself in the passage, only with regard to the jews themself.Now watch this.Another type and usage of a similar type of argument is seen in jesus response when they asked him by what AUTHORITY he did these things. He responded by saying:"The baptism of John, was it from God or men"They did not answer him because they kew they were trappedIs jesus implying that he does NOT have authority, because he did not answer the question directly, NO. it was designed to disway thier argument and thier angerIn the same way Jesus never says he is not God almighty, he simple disways their argument by putting a question to them, that they could not answerOne MUST interpret a verse in light of what the totality of scripture says concerning this topicPaul did the very same this by raising the question of resurrection when if front of the Pharisee's and Sadducee'sHis not claiming to NOT be God, he is simply avoiding thier anger by use of an argumentThink about it Peg its not rocket science
EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Can you show me a verse in scripture that states Jesus was god and man? First two state the opposite, as covered already. Not sure what you are refering to with Revelation. Sorry. Is it Ema or Eam? You often give both! LOL!

No, i dont think so... jesus himself stated in verse 36 he states exactly what he means when he says"do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?"This is why i asked jaywill why jesus did not say " because I said i am God?"You cant get around the semantics of Jesus words where he directly calls himself the Son.

Thank you for a word of encouragement. It is really the word of God which is wonderful.I notice that we have above a request to find a verse where Jesus states that He is God and man.But let's give this a try. I can think of a verse or two where Jesus states that He is a man and the house of God. In other words He is a living vessel within Whom God lives. Here Jesus mentions Himself as the Son of Man. I think we can conclude that this is Jesus stating that He is a man.But about the rest? The angels ascending and descening upon the Son of Man is a reference to the vision of Jacob in Genesis 28. Jacob saw a ladder going up to heaven. And the angels of God were ascending and descending upon the ladder.Jacob refered to that place as Bethel which means "house of God" (Genesis 28:17) . This place Jacob called Jehovah's house, the house of God, Bethel. It is Jehovah God who spoke to Jacob in the dream (28:13).When Jesus referenced this passage, saying that Nathaniel would see the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man the strong implication is that He, Jesus the Man, is the human and living Bethel. He is the human house of Jehovah God. He connects the heavens to the earth. He connects the earth to heaven.The angels first going up and then afterward going down, suggest that the main activity is on the earth. "You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man." God has an operation of establishing His dwelling place on the earth. At the time of the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, this Son of Man was the living human house of Jehovah God. A Man was the dwelling place of Jehovah. A Man was the gate of heaven and a ladder connecting earth to the heavens and the reality of Bethel - the house of God.The revelation is reinforced in the very next chapter where Jesus, refering to His physical body calls it the temple of God. "Destroy this temple [the human Bethel] and in three days I will raise it up... But He spoke of the temple of His body." (See John 2:19,21)At the moment I would submit this as the confession that Jesus is a man - the Son of Man and God - living in His body of created flesh and blood is God. He, as a man, is the reality of Bethel the house of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If this were true and God was actually living in Jesus body hence this makes Jesus God, then the apostles and diciples were also God for they too are called a living temple where God dwells inside. 1Corinth 6:19What! Do YOU not know that the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within YOU, which YOU have from God?Jesus was a temple of God in the same way that the christians were....they had recieved Gods holy spirit and they were living in accord with that spirit. It didnt mean that they were literally God-Men.

Why would I want to get around something Jesus or any Apostle said. Ironically that is what you and those who believe as you do, teach and believeYou still havent learned that the scriptures come in tiers, especially when concerning the nature of Christ.WE believe jesus when he says, he is the Son of manWe believe Jesus when he says, he is the Son of GodWe Believe Jesus when he says, IAMWe believe jesus when he says, "I am the first and the last"We believe the scriptures when they say, God is the first and the lastWe believe the scriptures when they say, "Thy throne oh God", when clearly refering to Christ in the contextIf the fact that Jesus is the Son of God makes him NOT God, then it would follow that, if he is the Son of Man, he is not actually the Son of God.Or is it the case that he can be all three. The scriptures teach that he is in fact all threeIt is amazing that you can see that he is the Son of Man and the Son of God, but not God himself. This may go against your reason, but it does not go against scripture, IF, we are willing to accept all the scripture has to say on the matter.So while Jesus, in every instance did not refer to himself as God, does not mean in other places the scriptures do not teach this directly or in principleif in one place Jesus said he was the son of Man, but does not mention he is the Son of God in the same context , does this make him not the Son of God?You have still failed to provide a passage the ascribes to man or angel ALL the designations of deity ascribed to Christ, ie, being perfect and sinless, therfore Completley Good, the first and last, IAM. In Hebrews we have an undeniable reference to Christ as God.I wait with anticipation the verses that reference a man or angel with the same characteristicsEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Ema,You're still giving the same few verses which time and time again have been shown to be mistranslated or out of context.A simple question:Exodus 7:1 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohiym to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Moses is clearly called elohiym, which is god. God made Moses this way.Is Moses god? Yes or no?John 9:9 (King James Version)9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, ego eimi (I am).Is the blind man in this verse god? Yes or no?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

That is true in life and nature but not in His Godhead.But the deification of the believers is really another whole discussion. I already told you. I already tried to explain that Christ is our Head, the unique possessing the Godhead, an end of our worship.However, the church is the Body of Christ and is the habitation of God in spirit (Eph. 2:22)The saved human beings are being built into God. They are being built into a dwelling place of God in spirit, being also the mingling of God and man:Please look at this passage from Ephesians: Those saved are being built up together into a mingling of God and man so that corporately His Body the church becomes the dwelling place of God in spirit.God became a man so that man might become God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.Now let us look at the words straight out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus in His mighty prayer to His Father before His crucifixion: The extensive and great salvation of God is to perfect the saved up into a oneness expressing the Triune God's glory. The Triune God dispenses His life and nature into His redeemed people and through the process of perfection, perfects them into oneness with Himself.This is why I spoke of the dispensing of God into man. This is not less then God creating man and placing man before the tree of life that man may take God's uncreated and divine life into himself that God may be assimilated into man.Jesus Christ is God from eternity - by way and process of incarnation, death, and resurrection. His Body, the temple and dwelling place of God in spirit, is perfected into God (not the Godhead) but God in life and nature and expression through Christ's salvation.Going back to the prayer of Jesus He continues: It is the will of the Father and the desire of the Son that the saved may be in the same realm as the Son. He is the man in the mingling of divnity and humanity. He is the God incarnated who became the One as the incorporation of God in man.God's creation of man and salvation of man is to bring man into this organic union with Himself.When the question is asked - "For to which of the angels has He ever said, You are My Son; this day I hhave begotten You?" (Hebrews 1:5) . There are only two answers. One is Gabriel and the other is Michael. Those are the only two angels mentioned in the Bible by name. Perhaps "Daystar" or the Latin "Lucifer" is a possibility.But really "To which of the angels ...?" must be answered with either Gabriel or Michael or to no angel.Now the Jehovah's Witness have the wrong response to this question of the word of God. They say "To which of the angels? Well, we will tell you to which of the angels. To Michael the angel! He's the one."This is wrong. Neither to Michael, nor to Gabriel nor to Daystar nor to any other angel was it said "You are My Son; this day I have begotten You. ... I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me" (See Hebrews 1:5) You should stop answering this question of Hebrews 1:5 with the name of Michael. You should not use Revelation 12 to try to prove that Michael is this Son of God. Peg, let me say up front first that I know the New Testament reasonably well. There are two places in First Corinthians where Paul says to the believers that they are the temple of the Holy Spirit. One place he refers to the church as the corporate temple, in 1 Cor. 3:16. The other place as you noted is 1 Cor. 6:19. But here Paul refers to the individual bodies of the believers.The believers never become God in His Godhead. They never become an object of worship. The attributes of God which are not communicable are not ever to be partaken of by the Christians, though their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.But those communicable attributes are being dispensed into the saved Christians. And this is why Peter says that the Christians have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4).It is important to see that this is not merely "worshippers of the divine nature" or merely "spectators of the divine nature". It is not merely the Christians are "witnesses or observers of the divine nature."They are PARTICIPANTS. They are PARTAKERS. They, through Christ's dispensing of God's life into man, become PARTAKERS of the divine nature.This makes us receivers of God's life and sons of God. In that sense we are God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. We do not have His Fatherhood. But we receive the impartation of His divine life and nature.Let me ask you this. God can express Himself in any manner. He taught Elijah the prophet, when Elijah was disappointed. God was not only expressed in the earthquake. God was not only expressed in the mighty wind so strong it could rip the mountain apart. God was not only expressed in the firestorm.God was expressed in a still small voice in Elijah's conscience.We tell you that Jesus is God. You stagger in doubt. But now I try to help you by informing you that God is not only expressed in absolute authority. God is also expressed in absolute obedience TO authority. God is expressed in absolute submission, perfect submission.The Triune God expresses this absolute authority and this absolute submission to authority - the Father and the Son. And the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Trinity dispenses and transmits this One's life and nature into man.Look again at the prayer of Jesus: This prayer must be answered. The answer to this mighty prayer is finally seen in Revelation 21 and 22. This mighty request of Jesus, this petition of the Father must be answered. The answer will extend unto eternity.The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 is a symbol of something profound. This tabernacle of God, this temple of God, this Bride and Wife of Christ, this holy city represents the dispensing of the Triune God into man for the mingling of God and man, an organic union of the Divine and human for God's expression and governmental administration and for man's enjoyment. We who have received Christ are indeed God men.We are under the perfecting and the building. It is not instantaneous transformation. But Christ is able to save us to the uttermost because He ever lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Interesting that the quote you give is lower case (as are the earliest translations) yet you turn around and capitalize it to show Jesus is god.Nowhere in the gospels dpes anyone exclaim that Jesus is god after this. Nowhere. Now, if this was meant as such a revelation, why is that? Surely from that point on the Jews, authors would have exclaimed that he was god. But they never do.Even more interesting, Jesus is taken before the high priest and the chief priests. They are looking for a reason to kill him. They even ask: "Are you the Christ?"? Mark 14:61. Wouldn't they have asked "Do you claim to be God?"? They brought in accusers and even false accusers, yet no one ever claimed Jesus stated he was god!"Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.'" - Matt. 26:59Here they invoke gods name, but not in relation to Jesus. Again they call him the Messiah, the SON of god.Seriously, if Jesus was thought of as god, why didnt they accuse him of that?On top of that, it does not even make sense to claim I AM is god (when Jesus is speaking) bc it would read:"Before Abraham came into being, god." How does this mean Jesus is god? Doesnt it make more sense that Jesus was stating before Abraham existed, Jesus did.John 9:9 (King James Version)9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, ego eimi (I am).Is the blind man in this verse god? Yes or no?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This is almost to embarrasing to respond to. Do you see in Moses the things attributed to Christ. When i asked for an example i menat an example where ALL the Characteristics attributed to Christ as deity, are attributed too any man or angel,So what does the heritical heritic do, he gives us an example of a passage where the scripture makes it clear that Moses will be "AS" God to pharoah and Aaron will be your prophetAdam Clarke on this passage "Verse 1. I have made thee a god
At thy word every plague shall come, and at thy command each shall be removed. Thus Moses must have appeared as a god to Pharaoh. "" 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, ""Like God" "I have made you", "everything I command you". "I will harden Pharhroas heart", "I will multiply my miracles, signs and wonders"Now let me ask you a question? Does it appear Moses is God to you?Hebrews does NOT says, Of the son he says, thy throne shall be LIKE Gods."Hebrews does not say, Of Moses, thy throne oh God"This is the best you can muster Mister? if it is, the debate is over.it is ironic that you use John chapeter 9 to demonstrate your point, since nearly every part of it is counterfactual to your beliefWhen he said "I am the one"They did not pick up stonesWhen he said "Iam he"they did not pick up stonesWhen he said Jesus was a prophet to the pahriseesThey did not pick up stones to stone himWhen he insulted the phariseesThey did not pick up stones to stone himAfter all of this, he falls later at jesus' feet and adores and worships himMaybe the Jews of that day understood jesus to mean he was equating himself with God. maybe the Jews understood the blind man to be doing nothing of the sort, so all they did was throw him our and call him a sinner.Your task is an impossible one, to provide an example of a man or angel with all the things attributed to Christ.Has it ever Dawned on you that the reason people believe he is God is because that is excally what the scriptures teach?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

A simple question:
Exodus 7:1 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohiym to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Moses is clearly called elohiym, which is god. God made Moses this way.Is Moses god? Yes or no? What is embarrassing is your rant. My question has NOTHING to do with your initial question. God calls Moses god. From your words, why is that? My question has NOTHING do with with Hebrews 1:8. This has been covered already quite a few times. It references back to Pslam 45, which if read in context, Hebrews 1:8, it clearly shows its not about Jesus. But again, my question has NOTHING do with with Hebrews.Now, if you're done with your rant, can you answer a simple question?Why did god call Moses god?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John 9 has NOTHING do with my initial question. You're very confused, arent you? As I have already pointed out last time we debated, they picked up stones for a few reasons. He claimed to be the messiah. He also called the Jews children of Satan.Now to get back on topic, you claim is that since Jesus said "I am" it MUST refer back to Exodus? First, it does not even make sense to state: Before Abraham, god. How does this show Jesus is god? It would only make sense if Jesus stated, "Before Abraham, I have always been god" or something of the sort. You lack any evidence whatsover to show Jesus is refering back to Exodus. All you have done is take the word "I am".Its the exact word that I have shown is used elsewhere. If your logic is that "I am" means god, then the blind man in the example I gave is also god! Same words. I AM.

I'll ask for a third time:Your claims are that there are clear cut examples in the gospels that Jesus is god. This is a capital offense to the Jews.Yet when before the High priest and the council, not one person made this claim. Not one. They brought in witnesses and even had false witnesses....to find ANY evidence against Jesus.Not one person made the claim that he claimed to be god.Why is that? Peg and I have easily shown in the gospels that the few verses which you assert show Jesus as god have other explanations once the context is examined.Now, if Jesus went around claiming to be god and he was going to be stoned for this, why wasn't this brought up at the trial?There really is a simple explantion. Jesus NEVER claimed to be god.He was the son of god. Not god the son. He made it clear the message he spoke was NOT his, but god. He made it clear that the father was his father and his god. He made it clear when he prayed and begged to god. He made it clear god gave him powers and abilities, made him divine to carry a message, to set examples.Jesus never once in the gospels ever stated he was god. Nor did the Jews ever assume this.

Son, you cant expect me to take you serious if you cant even see the difference between, "I have made", "be like" and "as" God to pharoah, verses "You will actually be God"If you want to be taken serious as a debater, dont just skip over arguments and statments. Even your translation states, "I have made you God to Pharoah". Since God is eternal and is not made, even a tyro in logic can see what is being implied in the passage.Please be serious or I cant take you serious.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

so you dont see the anomoly here?You say that because the scriptures say that God dwells in Jesus, it makes him God, then the same scritpures say that God dwells in the christians, but that doesnt make them God.If God is also said to dwell in the Christians, not as some incarnate, but simply that he does so by their obeying his word, you dont think that perhaps the interpretation that God dwells in Jesus as some sort incarnation is just plain wrong? This is a good scripture for understanding exactly what Jesus is talking about.
Look at verse 23. "that they may be perfected into one..." You seem to think this 'perfected into one' somehow proves the trinity.Here is how other versions render this verse to give the idea of Jesus meaning about becoming one. They show that the trinity is certianly not what he had in mind:
NIV - "may they be brought to complete unity..."
NASB - "that they may be perfected in unity"
NLT - "May they experience such perfect unity..."
NIV UK - "May they be brought to complete unity..."
TNIV - "so that they may be brought to complete unity..."God and Christ were in complete unity...this didnt make Jesus God, it simply meant that he had a oneness of mind with his father...the same way Jesus wanted ALL of his followers to have a oneness. Thats a oneness of purpose, of will of worship. If Jesus is saying that all the millions of christians can be perfected into one, it certainly doesnt make sense to say that the same 'oneness' somehow proves the trinity of God and Christ.Christ is not God, just as the christians are not Christ.they are one in unity.

Jesus is God processed to be "eaten" by man. "The Word became flesh" represents a kind of process. The Word Who was a God "became" what previously the Word was not - flesh. God was incarnated. The process of incarnation was not just so man could have a theological doctrine. The process was that Christ might redeem man and bring God into the redeemed man.Jesus becoming a life giving Spirit is also a step in this process. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" is the second great becoming in Scripture. The second man, Christ, was the last Adam. He concluded one humanity and started a new one. To do this He became a divine life imparting Spirit - the Holy Spirit.I do not say that the Spirit of God is not eternal here. I do say that with the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the man Jesus Christ brought the Man Jesus of Nazareth and His humanity into the etenal Spirit. I am not sure how else we can understand "the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit" .But the main point is that the Word becoming flesh and the last Adam becoming a life giving Holy Spirit is not that man may have a doctrine. It is that God may impart His life and nature into man. The Triune God absolutely IS what He does. And that is to process Himself so that God can be disensed into man.Consider now Jesus as the Lamb of God. In the Feast of Passover the lamb was first killed and its blood put on the doorpost and on the lintel. This was to protect the believing ones inside the house that they may have peace. The destroying judgment would pass over them.But the lamb was not just slain. And it was slain for its blood of protection. It was slain to be eaten. And it was not eaten raw. It was cut into pieces and roasted with fire. This too was a process to make the lamb edible. The lamb was slain, cut, roasted and taken into the believers. Even in being eaten it was being further processed. It was being assimilated, chewed, and digested. Christians often pay far more attention to the blood of the lamb and neglect the roasting of the slain lamb and the feast of eating this lamb. The New Testament says to the Christians that Christ is our Passover. It is not that Christ is our Passover Lamb only. He is the our entire Passover (1 Cor. 5:7)The Triune God is processed through incarnation, death, resurrection, and becoming the life giving Spirit that God may impart God into man as man's "food".The thought of God being processed to be man's food is the concept of Jesus when He said that He was the bread of life. Let me ask you all, without going through a process, can Christ become bread ? To arrive at bread there must also be a process. Jesus saying He is the bread of life in John 6 reveals God being processed to be received as "food" for man.The Passover Lamb typifies the Lord Jesus. The Bread of life also does. God said that the Passover Lamb must not be eaten raw or boiled; it must be eaten roasted.Man is not to take in Christ simply as a humanistic martyr. To simply take Jesus as a example of a good person may be akin to taking the Lamb of God raw or boiled. But to take Him in "roasted" is to see He was prepared through the divine judgment of God.For the Lord Jesus to be our "bread of life" He also had to undergo a process. This typology of the slaying, roasting, and eating of the Lamb of God represents the Triune God passing through a process to dispense Himself into man. And Jesus coming down from heaven as the bread of life also represents the Triune God being processed that He might dispense His life into man.I will continue.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.