Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,906 Year: 4,163/9,624 Month: 1,034/974 Week: 361/286 Day: 4/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Truth About Evolution and Religion
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 186 of 419 (561155)
05-19-2010 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Blue Jay
05-18-2010 5:24 PM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
I just looked over quickly the paper
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...df/HJFOA5-000003-000328_1.pdf
The paper says:
"Long standing debates about the roll of natural selection in the growth of biological complexity..."
It goes on to discuss the problem of explaining complexity from natural selection. At no point does it say Darwinism totally explains the complexity of life. The paper seeks to justify Darwinism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Blue Jay, posted 05-18-2010 5:24 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 5:06 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 209 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 12:05 PM dkroemer has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 189 of 419 (561158)
05-19-2010 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Modulous
05-18-2010 8:46 PM


Re: In conclusion, what's your point?
You don't need any background to understand why God exists, as my video explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKaF8vX6HXQ
Since we have free will and conscious knowledge, we are unified with respect to ourselves and different from other beings. Hence, we are finite beings. But a finite being needs a cause. If all beings in the universe needed a cause the universe would not be intelligible. Hence, and infinite being exists. QED
Intelligent design is irrational because it is like saying God caused the Big Bang. The Big Bang could have been caused by an angel. It is not good science or good metaphysics. The Big Bang however is a reason to believe in the Bible because the Bible says God created the world ex nilhilo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2010 8:46 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:22 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 203 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2010 6:57 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 190 of 419 (561159)
05-19-2010 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by RAZD
05-18-2010 10:50 PM


Re: ... and yet, amusingly, it is STILL explained by evolution ...
I looked at the lessons on evolution from Berkeley and U. Michigan. The Berkeley lesson clearly states that natural selection produces complexity, but the U. Michigan one does not. The Berekely lesson is not signed. It is not peer reviewed. It may have been written by an anti-religious fanatic trying to show that intelligent design is irrational. ID is irrational, but there are honest ways this can be explained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2010 10:50 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 05-19-2010 8:51 PM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 191 of 419 (561160)
05-19-2010 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Huntard
05-19-2010 5:05 AM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
What I am saying is that there is no disagreement about evolutionary biology between Kenneth Miller (pro-Darwin) and Michael Behe (anti-Darwin). The way to determine if this is true is by comparing their written statements. I do this in my review of Miller's book, which was published by OrthodoxyToday.org:
http://www.dkroemer.com/page4/page4.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:05 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:29 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 197 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 5:33 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 200 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2010 6:21 AM dkroemer has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 193 of 419 (561162)
05-19-2010 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Wounded King
05-19-2010 5:06 AM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
My point is that we don't know what the other factors are. The increase in the complexity of life is a scientific mystery, like the origin of life and the big bang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 5:06 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 6:31 AM dkroemer has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 194 of 419 (561163)
05-19-2010 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Huntard
05-19-2010 5:22 AM


Re: In conclusion, what's your point?
How do we know we have free will? People who say we don't live their lives as if they had free will. They fell guilty when they do something wrong, they apologize, and they promise not to do it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:22 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:32 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 198 of 419 (561167)
05-19-2010 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Huntard
05-19-2010 5:29 AM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
I'm not saying life is too complex to have evolved. I'm saying life is too complex to have evolved from facilitated variation, natural selection, random mutations, genetic drift, etc.
1) The probability of getting a 300-amino-acid protein by random chance is 1 in 20300.
2) This probability is increased by considering natural selection and facilitated variation, but the odds are still very small.
3) The primary structure of a protein does not begin to describe the complexity of life.
4) There is no peer reviewed work or text book that says natural selection explains the complexity of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:29 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:46 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2010 6:25 AM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 12:09 PM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 204 of 419 (561181)
05-19-2010 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Dr Adequate
05-19-2010 6:21 AM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
Perhaps you think intelligent design is part of biology? I do not. It is just bad metaphysics. This is where Miller and Behe disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2010 6:21 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-19-2010 6:10 PM dkroemer has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 205 of 419 (561182)
05-19-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Wounded King
05-19-2010 6:31 AM


Re: But we do know of other factors
I think you are overstating how much we know. I consider common descent a mystery, like the big bang and the origin of life. I might be overstating it to call it only an explanation for adaptation. Behe doesn't even say that. According to Behe Darwinism is just destructive, as in the production of sickle-cell anemia. Maybe Darwinism explains how fish became reptiles. It is the job of professional biologists to make an attempt at explaining the limitations of Darwinism. (I don't say natural selection to avoid a lecture about evolution and the accusation that I don't understand anything about evolution.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 6:31 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 10:22 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 208 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 11:18 AM dkroemer has replied
 Message 211 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 12:12 PM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 213 of 419 (561240)
05-19-2010 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Huntard
05-19-2010 10:22 AM


Re: But we do know of other factors
I'd be grateful if you commented on my remarks about the lessons on evolution given by 1) Berkeley and 2) U. of Michigan. It really states the whole issue we are discussing in a nutshell:
1) Berkely is lying and 2) U. of Michigan is telling the truth.
Berkeley states that natural selection explains complexity. I consider it dishonest because I can spell out their motive. They are trying to discredit intelligent design, not for rational reasons, but to promote atheistic humanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 10:22 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:15 PM dkroemer has replied
 Message 230 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:08 PM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 215 of 419 (561243)
05-19-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by New Cat's Eye
05-19-2010 10:49 AM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
We can assume that evolution does not violate the second law since the second law is clearer even than the first law of thermodynamics. Saying evolution violates the second law implies that the universe is not intelligible. What scientists are doing is trying to find an explanation of evolution that is consistent with the second law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 10:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:29 PM dkroemer has replied
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 4:09 PM dkroemer has not replied
 Message 236 by RAZD, posted 05-19-2010 9:11 PM dkroemer has replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 216 of 419 (561244)
05-19-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Wounded King
05-19-2010 11:18 AM


Re: But we do know of other factors
As human beings we have a drive to know and understand everything. Some things we don't understand, like the big bang and the origin of life. The big bang is a mystery. Another mystery is this: What is the relationship between ourselves and our bodies? What are mental beings? What is conscious knowledge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Wounded King, posted 05-19-2010 11:18 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 217 of 419 (561246)
05-19-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Taq
05-19-2010 12:05 PM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
This is the best you found? There is nothing here which says: Natural selection explains the increase in the complexity of life from prokaryotes to chimps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 12:05 PM Taq has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 218 of 419 (561247)
05-19-2010 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Blue Jay
05-19-2010 12:38 PM


Re: and yet, curiously, it is still explained by evolution ...
They never say that facilitated variation explains the complexity of life. The quote I gave in my video specifically limits facilitated variation to adaptation. Why do they use the word "adaptation" instead of the word "common descent". Why did they not do the calculation for a sonnet that they did for "to be or not to be"?
The reason they don't is that if they did the calculation for a sonnet it would sound like they were claiming they understood common descent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Blue Jay, posted 05-19-2010 12:38 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Blue Jay, posted 05-20-2010 10:25 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
dkroemer
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 125
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 05-15-2010


Message 220 of 419 (561250)
05-19-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by New Cat's Eye
05-19-2010 3:15 PM


Re: But we do know of other factors
I wouldn't call it a conspiracy. I call it a scam debate between advocates of ID and Darwinists. The motivation of ID advocates is to promote religion and the motivation of Darwinists is to promote atheistic humanism.
When I asked a panel of experts if evolution applied to the soul no one answered. Why? Because they can't deny humans have souls. But they can't admit it either for career reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:34 PM dkroemer has replied
 Message 226 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 4:12 PM dkroemer has replied
 Message 227 by Taq, posted 05-19-2010 4:13 PM dkroemer has replied
 Message 231 by Huntard, posted 05-19-2010 5:12 PM dkroemer has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024