The Truth About Evolution and Religion

Hi dkroemer, and welcome to the fray.I understand you are inordinately proud of your youtube video.Unfortunately you are also sadly wrong about the basics of evolution, and this leads you to make some false conclusions. Evolutionary biology is concerned with the evolution of life as we know it, from the world around us, from history, and from prehistory; from archaeology, paleontology, geology, physics and even astronomy; it is based on evidence and seeing how it all fits together. Human beings are only one incidental element of biology in general and evolution in particular.Curiously, you are correct that evolution in particular and biology in general (if not science as a whole) is not concerned with the evolution of non-physical non-material elements that are undefined and that have no evidence of existence. Science only deals with what can be measured and described and tested. Nor does natural selection really explain adaptation of organisms to environment, strictly speaking. It only explains the increased survival and breeding of the organisms that are already best adapted to their ecology among those in the population under selection. Adaptation comes about through the dual mechanisms of mutation and selection: mutations offer new variations, which may or may not be better adapted to a specific ecology, and natural selection then gives "preferential treatment" to those who are better adapted to their ecology among those in the population under selection by allowing them to survive and breed better than the other organisms in the breeding population. Correct, because biology textbooks in specific are not religious or philosophical texts, and science in general is not religion or philosophy. Rather science is a method of testing concepts against evidence of reality, and it involves discarding invalidated concepts. As noted above, natural selection alone is insufficient to explain even "the increase in the complexity of life as it evolved from single-celled organisms to chimps" because this is just one part of the evolutionary picture. To explain "the increase in the complexity of life as it evolved from single-celled organisms to chimps" you need to use all of evolution, which include many other concepts, mutation, neutral drift, among others. Because "professional biologists" (ie people with degrees in biology and who have studied what evolution is really about) know that there is more to evolution than just natural selection. Curiously, your opinion is totally irrelevant to the truth. Opinion and belief have been found to be completely incapable of altering reality in any way. Reality always seems to have the last word. This is why invalidated concepts are discarded in science: science is a process that approximates the truth, refining and moving closer to reality as new concepts are tried out and tested.Amusingly evolution is one of the best tested concepts in science. You can see evolution occurring all around you. Amazingly there are many christians and muslims that have no problem at all with their beliefs and with evolution. Incredibly there are many other religions that don't even have fundamentalist sects that disagree with evolution and that do not find that evolution "prevents" them from believing what they believe. Logically then the fault\cause of any conflict between a specific religion and evolution must lie with the religion.For example, it is readily apparent that any religion at odds with reality (ie advocating a young earth when the evidence is that the earth is old) will find themselves at odds with the science that details the evidence of reality, and yet it is not the fault of the science for detailing what the evidence shows.Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : clarityEdited by RAZD, : more

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Hi again, dkroemer, The argument from authority doesn't mean that what is said is true, you need evidence. So (1) bygosh lets have this definition, and then see if you have any evidence for it, and (2) how does this apply to other religions.Just because you say "religion" doesn't mean you only consider one of them (and only one of them).Now, do you want to learn about evolution?Enjoy.

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Hi again dkroemer I thought you wanted to talk about evolution, and how it interfaces with religions, not just preach your specific religion.My mistake. Have fun.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : subtitle

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Hi again dkroemer,Personally I think you need to slow down and take in some of the comments that have already been made. In order for you to teach anyone about biology in general and evolution in particular, you will need to establish your credentials, you need to show that you understand the basic concepts of biology (in general) and evolution (in particular).Can you define what the biological process of evolution is (as opposed to the theory of evolution)? Once we have established that you know what evolution is, as a process, then we can move on to other topics. None of the above. I would ask the student (a) how he defined "free will" and (b) how does this apply to biology and evolution?This is what is called a "teaching moment" - a time when the questioner can be prompted to think outside their current thinking and see if they can develop an answer. It seems you rely heavily on quotes from people, and there are several problems with this: if the quotes are taken out of context then they do not mean what they are purported to mean, the person being quoted can be wrong, the person may not be an authority on the subject. This is known as the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. Here is an example of the problems with quotes: the "he" in the phrase "And yet, he explained, it did evolve, ..." appears to refer to Darwin, and yet this is not possible because "random genetic mutation" was unknown in Darwin's time. Do you or do you not understand that natural selection and random genetic mutation are two completely distinct and separate processes?Comments like this do not bode well for your ability to teach anyone something about biology in general and evolution in particular.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : clrty

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Hi dkroemer, sorry, I asked you first:What is evolution?After you have answered that, then you can ask me a question.Enjoy.

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Hi, dkroemer, am I right in assuming that you cannot define evolution? Nope, amused is more like it. Are you ready to learn the difference between natural selection and evolution?Enjoy.

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Hi dkroemer, I haven't read the book so I can't say for certain ... ... but I can make an educated guess:

• That natural selection is not the only mechanism in evolution.
• That mutation provides variation for selection to act on.
• That neutral drift also is part of the picture, where neutral mutations will persist in populations as long as they are not disadvantageous.
• That deleterious mutations will cause reduced success in reproduction and survival in organisms with such mutations, and
• that beneficial mutations will cause increased success in reproduction and survival in organisms with such mutations.
• That in different ecologies different mutations can be deleterious or beneficial.

... just for starters.Evolution is the change in frequency of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities.This is observed today in all living species, and thus it is a fact of reality.Traits that are beneficial become more frequent in the population, while traits that are deleterious become less frequent in the population.When evolution occurs in populations isolated from other populations of the same species, the evolution that occurs will be different because (a) the mutations that occur only occur in one population or the other, and (b) the selection of variations will be different because the ecologies are different.Over time this can result in reproductive isolation and the formation of new species.This too has been observed and is a fact.The process of evolution and the process of speciation are observed facts.The theory of evolution is that these two processes are sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the world around us, from history, from prehistory, from archaeology, from paleontology, from geography, from physics, from genetics and from chemistry.This includes the development of more complex species, but complexity is not a required end result of evolution, rather it is an observed result that happens to be explained by evolution.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : clrty

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Ah dkroemer, easy for you to say, but can you show me where my error is? And yet, curiously, both the adaptation to various ecologies and common descent are explained by evolution and speciation.Fascinatingly, evolution and speciation are still sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it.Evolution explains adaptation to ecologies, both long term adaptation and new adaptations to new ecologies or changing ecologies.Speciation explains descent of new species from common ancestor populations, and evolution explains both speciation and the divergence of the daughter populations after speciation.Both the fossil record and the genetic record show a pattern of nested hierarchies of common descent from parent populations.They show the same pattern of nested hierarchies of common descent from parent populations.They show the same pattern of evolution and speciation that is observed in the world today. Did you quote the whole book? Actually it is what the science of evolution in particular and biology in general say. These sciences say this independent of who is involved. It doesn't matter what Gerhart and Kirshner actually say, because they are not the final arbiters of what is and is not biology or evolution: science is.Enjoy.

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dkroemer, you rely way too much on authority. No, they are not.Facts and the scientific method are the final arbiters in science. Science does not depend on people, it depends on facts and the scientific method. Amusingly, once again we are around to your repetition of incomplete misinformation.Natural selection is not evolution per se. Evolution includes natural selection AND mutation AND neutral drift AND many other mechanisms. TOGETHER they explain the diversity of life.Together they explain the variations observed in complexity -- some organisms becoming more complex, while others become more simple.If you do not understand how the complexity of an eye forms by evolution, for example, it isn't because you haven't read just the right books by the just right authors, it is because you haven't learned the science.or done a simple googleEvolution (the change in hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities) via mutation (forming new variations) and natural selection (causing beneficial mutations to spread in breeding populations) is sufficient to explain the evolution of the eye.Enjoy.

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Hi again dkroemer, I wonder what you hope to accomplish here. Were you "called" here to spread falsehoods and misinformation, or were you "called" here to learn? The problem is that just disputing the statement is not enough, you need to show that the statement is false or invalid. You have not done this. Posting quotes is not refutation. Posting facts is refutation: you need to demonstrate that the facts refute the position.And thus, amusingly, you still have not shown that what I said is false or invalid, all you have demonstrated is that you can find quotes that seem (to you) to contradict it.You seem to think you are here to teach people something, and yet 17 out of the 19 posters on this thread are all in agreement that you need to learn the basics about evolution.You have titled your thread "The Truth About Evolution and Religion" and yet you are unwilling to learn the truth. You are likely unaware of just how common -- dead common -- your arguments are in the creationist community. So far you have hit all the normal creationist high notes: misrepresentation of people being quoted (quote mines), spreading misinformation about evolution, probability miscalculations, and thermodynamic misrepresentations.I was going to review your other comments since your reply to my post but I don't think there is much point unless you want to learn what evolution is really about, and so far you have demonstrated a complete lack of interest in learning the truth.I also see that other have already shown you that you are wrong in virtually every single post, and I don't need to repeat that information - either you take it to heart and start to learn, or you won't.If you want to learn, I have a couple of good links for starters:

The University of Berkeley

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Evolution 101 - Understanding Evolution
What is evolution and how does it work? Evolution 101 provides the nuts-and-bolts on the patterns and mechanisms of evolution. You can explore the following sections:

• Definition: How is evolution defined?
• Patterns: What patterns in diversity over time are produced by evolution?
• Mechanisms: How does evolution work?
• Microevolution: How does evolution work on a small scale?
• Speciation: What is a species and how do new ones evolve?
• Macroevolution: How does evolution work on a large scale?
• Big Issues: What are the interesting questions about evolution that are currently being investigated?

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An introduction to evolution - Understanding Evolution
The Definition:
Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.

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This is an excellent site, it is essentially a self-guided course in evolution from a university biology department that (gasp) actually teaches evolution, and it allows you to learn at your own pace, and focus on parts that are of interest.I recommend you spend several hours reading it before you post any more nonsense about biology and evolution, as it can save you from making more mistakes (I'd say embarrassing mistakes if I thought you would be embarrassed about saying foolish things - your posts demonstrate that you aren't).

The University of Michigan

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The Process of Speciation
Definitions of Biological Evolution
We begin with two working definitions of biological evolution, which capture these two facets of genetics and differences among life forms. Then we will ask what is a species, and how does a species arise?

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• Definition 1:
  Changes in the genetic composition of a population with the passage of each generation
• Definition 2:
  The gradual change of living things from one form into another over the course of time, the origin of species and lineages by descent of living forms from ancestral forms, and the generation of diversity

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Note that the first definition emphasizes genetic change. It commonly is referred to as microevolution. The second definition emphasizes the appearance of new, physically distinct life forms that can be grouped with similar appearing life forms in a taxonomic hierarchy. It commonly is referred to as macroevolution.

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A full explanation of evolution requires that we link these two levels. Can small, gradual change produce distinct species? How does it occur, and how do we decide when species are species? Hopefully you will see the connections by the end of these three lectures.

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This page then goes on to explain the process of speciation and the development of diversity and the descent from common ancestor populations:

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Speciation results in the splitting of an ancestral species into two (or more) descendent species. This process, continued indefinitely, results in a sequence of speciation events extending over great expanses of time, resulting in a branching tree of historical relatedness. Imagine if we had complete and certain knowledge of such a tree -- it would tell us the evolutionary relatedness among living things, the pathways of divergence, even the timing of separation.

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Both these websites show that common ancestry is a result of speciation, and thus the common ancestry evident in the fossil record can be explained by evolution. Amazingly, evolution (the change in hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities) via mutation (introducing new genetic variations) and natural selection (allowing mutations that are adaptively beneficial within the ecology to spread in breeding populations relative to mutations that are deleterious) and various other mechanisms (including neutral\genetic drift, etc) is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it, from the world around us, from history, and from prehistory; from archaeology, paleontology, geology, physics, chemistry, genetics and even astronomy.Evolution explains adaptation to ecologies, both long term adaptation to stable ecologies and new adaptations to new ecologies or to changing ecologies.Speciation explains descent of new species from common ancestor populations, and evolution explains both how speciation occurs and the increasing divergence of the daughter populations after speciation.Evolution is an observed fact of life.Speciation is an observed fact of life.Both the fossil record and the genetic record show a pattern of nested hierarchies of common descent from parent populations.They show the same pattern of nested hierarchies of common descent from parent populations.They show the same pattern of evolution and speciation that is observed in the world today.It is that simple.Enjoy.

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Hi Huntard, The links are
Evolution 101 - Understanding Evolution
An introduction to evolution - Understanding Evolution
The Process of Speciation See Message 181 ... of course UMich is not "lying" because that one page does not mention complexity ... ? (but then, neither does Berkeley).Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : clrty

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You are a laugh a minute, dkroemer.First you claim that no professional biologist claims that evolution explains complexity or common ancestry, and then as soon as you have evidence of a whole group of professional biologists -- the whole department of biology at the University of Berkeley for one -- that say what evolution explains, what is your response? So because Berkeley shows that your claims about complexity (even though they don't mention complexity) and common ancestry are false, you conclude that they are liars, anti-religious fanatics, involved in a conspiracy?I am curious why you think UMich is telling the truth - can you explain this in more detail?Both sites give you the same information about evolution. Here's some more from UMich:

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http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/..._life/complex_life.html

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• The history of life involves enormous change. Major life forms have appeared, flourished, and died out. Reptiles ruled the earth for nearly 200 million years. Yet, like most species and many life forms (families, orders, even phyla), the dinosaurs are gone, replaced by life forms that either were biologically superior, or just luckier. At some points in earth history many species went extinct in a short time. These are called mass extinctions, a topic we will revisit shortly.

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• Over time, life has become more diverse and more complex (although it can be argued that complexity lies in the eye of the beholder). The increase in the number of families of marine vertebrates and invertebrates throughout the Phanerozoic Eon illustrates this clearly (see figure below). The number of families of marine organisms has increased slowly over geological time.

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and some more:

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Evolution and Natural Selection

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Darwin’s process of natural selection has four components.

1. Variation. Organisms (within populations) exhibit individual variation in appearance and behavior. These variations may involve body size, hair color, facial markings, voice properties, or number of offspring. On the other hand, some traits show little to no variation among individualsfor example, number of eyes in vertebrates.
2. Inheritance. Some traits are consistently passed on from parent to offspring. Such traits are heritable, whereas other traits are strongly influenced by environmental conditions and show weak heritability.
3. High rate of population growth. Most populations have more offspring each year than local resources can support leading to a struggle for resources. Each generation experiences substantial mortality.
4. Differential survival and reproduction. Individuals possessing traits well suited for the struggle for local resources will contribute more offspring to the next generation.

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From one generation to the next, the struggle for resources (what Darwin called the struggle for existence) will favor individuals with some variations over others and thereby change the frequency of traits within the population. This process is natural selection. The traits that confer an advantage to those individuals who leave more offspring are called adaptations.

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In order for natural selection to operate on a trait, the trait must possess heritable variation and must confer an advantage in the competition for resources. If one of these requirements does not occur, then the trait does not experience natural selection. (We now know that such traits may change by other evolutionary mechanisms that have been discovered since Darwin’s time.)

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Natural selection is one mechanism among many within evolution.And then the fist link I gave you from UMich again:

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The Process of Speciation

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Biological evolution can be defined in two ways: as a result of changes in the genetic composition of a population with the passage of each generation (microevolution), or as a result of the gradual change of living things from one form into another over the course of time, generating species diversity (macroevolution).

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Species formation can occur either through allopatric (geographic) speciation or through sympatric speciation.

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Evolution explains speciation, and ...

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Speciation results in the splitting of an ancestral species into two (or more) descendent species. This process, continued indefinitely, results in a sequence of speciation events extending over great expanses of time, resulting in a branching tree of historical relatedness. Imagine if we had complete and certain knowledge of such a tree -- it would tell us the evolutionary relatedness among living things, the pathways of divergence, even the timing of separation.

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There are two ways to construct a phylogenetic tree (see Figure). We can use a "perfect" fossil record to trace the sequence from beginning to end, or we can use similarities and differences among living things to reconstruct history, working from the endpoint toward the beginning.

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In this course, we will not consider these two methods in detail. I introduce them to make the point that, ultimately, we want to understand how evolution produces not just two species from one but the entire tree of life. This requires that we make the transition from microevolution to macroevolution. To Darwin, and to modern evolutionary biologists as well, the answer simply is time. Given enough time and successive splittings, the processes that produce two species from one will result in the entire diversity of life.

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... speciation and evolution explain the "entire diversity of life" as we know it.Curiously, this is what I have been telling you for some time now ...Enjoy.

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Hi dkroemer, it's not really very difficult at all, Every organism known obtains energy from external sources, they are not a "closed system" and thus they do not violate the second law.Life - Wikipedia

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While there is no universal agreement on the definition of life, scientists generally accept that the biological manifestation of life exhibits the following phenomena:
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2. Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
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A simple experiment: take any organism, deprive it of external energy and observe what happens.Enjoy.

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Hi dkroemer, still trying to remake reality? Which is also not a closed system. Species survival is a matter of interactions with the whole ecology surrounding the species.The evidence that this is actually true is quite prevalent: natural selection has been observed frequently, and as such the occurrence of natural selection is a fact of reality. If indeed this violates the second law, then this simple fact invalidates the second law -- it certainly invalidates your misuse of it. Curiously, it matters not one whit of ant frass in Antarctica to entropy what the color and pattern the cards in any hand happen to be. The energy levels of the cards are the same regardless of the patterns on the cards. An ace does not have any more or less energy than a deuce. Hilarious, and also flatulently false. If the deck was not shuffle, but new out of the pack, you would not have a perfect bridge hand in any of the hands.It is also not impossible for a deck to be arranged during shuffling into one specific arrangement, having it match a pre-chosen arrangement is just a matter of probability not impossibility.You are now confusing probability with entropy, much to my amusement. And unfortunately, for you, the "theory of four perfect hands" has nothing to do with natural selection in particular or with evolution in general. Wrong, fragrantly wrong.The odds of shuffling the deck into any one predetermined arrangement is exactly the same as for any other predetermined arrangement.However, there are 4x3x2x1 possible arrangements of the deck that result in four perfect bridge hands and thus the probability of getting ONE of these arrangements is 24 times as great as for reproducing the manufacturer's arrangement.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : added more

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Hi dkroemer You are correct, a lot of laymen think that evolution does not explain the complexity of life. But biologists know better.Curiously, I can substantiate what I say with references that show this to be so, according to evolution, as I did in Message 235: And, of course, we now know that this is true because you have said that UMich is telling the truth. Which of course, is (amusingly) still totally irrelevant to the issue of evolution, and whether the diversity of life as we know it is explained by evolution, including all the mechanisms that cause change in the types and frequencies of hereditary traits in breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunity.From Message 235 again: Evolution explains speciation, and speciation and evolution explain the "entire diversity of life" as we know it.Curiously, this is what I have been telling you for some time now ...And again, amusingly, we know that this is true now, because you have said that UMich is telling the truth.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : subtitle

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